Hi Jason,
Sorry for the long post.
Jason Hare wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:02 pmThere is no separate form for imperfect and jussive in the plural.
Basically, you are right.
but the separate forms did exist archaically.
And there was the long-form with the "un" and the short form without it.
Through time, the suffix "un" was dropped, and the forms became the same.
But still, we see that there are "traces" for that archaic form, and there are more than 300 YQTL that have this suffix "un".
So these forms with the "un" are actually the indicative ones.
Jason Hare wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:02 pmWhat would prevent it from being jussive? I mean, I don't think it matters in the end. The forms are identical for a reason
But we are not talking about identical forms.
We are talking about a non-common form which is the YQTL with "un".
I can see your point that you may say. that maybe some of the "un" suffixes, through time, also was given in a manner of "poetic style" or in specific pauses or in "nice" places. But it should be checked if it was given in a non-indicative role.
Jason Hare wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:02 pmIt's a difference in nuance, not in usage.
You see this self-curse as a wish.
And The thing is, and that is what I think is the core of this argument, is that I think that a self-curse is not a wish.
I think it is a matter of sureness.
Like putting two equal things on two sides of the scale and see it as reality (after all, a curse is actually creating a "new" reality).
And the curse then represents the reality, like "if I jumped off the roof = I die"
It is not a matter of a wish - but it is the reality. Equal measures. A leads to B.
The person might wish that he would die, and he can think of many ways to make his wish come true - but the relationship between the result of dying and the act of jumping, is not a relation of a wish - it is just that A leads to B and that's it.
When there is a conditional relationship between A and B - the relation is not about wishing. but it is the truth.
The Wish is to want that a certain condition will occur.
But once it occurred - the wish is over - and the two sides of the conditions are related by facts.
(When A is like this, then B is like that).
And so, the self-curse is like creating a new format of an equation:
if I do/not do this = I'll get X
So, when she said: "(A)if I don't kill Eliyahu, (B)the gods will punish me", it is not a wish (no one wishes to be punished) - but the swearing/cursing is so strong, that she is like creating a new reality by putting two equal things on two sides of the scale.
So of course, you may say that the fact that she even said that is a wish, and you are right. But the wish is the macro - it is: I wish that A and B would be linked. but in the Micro - inside the now-linked A and B - it is just a matter of a cause and a result. The B is no longer based on a wish - but it is based on the A.
One says:
1. "I wish that X will play today.
2. If he does, the team will surely win the game".
The wish is to connect "X" with "playing".
And the statement is that this connection will bring a sure thing.
He didn't say: I wish X will be good enough to win the game.
But he knows that if he plays - the team will win.
All he needs now is to wish that X and "playing" are connected.
Jason Hare wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:02 pmNotice this remark from Joüon & Muraoka (§44.e): "When the meaning is clearly jussive, only very rarely a form with
וּן is found, e.g.
יִכְרְעוּן Jb 31.10;
בַּל־יֶחֱזָ֑יוּן Is 26.11."
Are these two examples that they bring really "clear" jussive as they say?
And before talking about the examples, I think that that fact that these scholars didn't write in their "rare examples" the case of יעשון in our verse, says that even they don't see that case as jussive.
This case is a pattern that comes more than ten times in the bible (כה יעשה וכה יוסיף) in a few ways.
Two of them have the יעשון, And one of them has יוספון.
I can't believe that a famous phrase like that would be excluded from the list of their examples.
The fact that they didn't write it, tells me (at least that is how I see it) that they didn't see this as a good example to use.
So I think that these scholars are not sure enough about this verse. Because a case like that just begs to be used as an example - and it wasn't.
Jason Hare wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:02 pme.g.
יִכְרְעוּן Jb 31.10;
This is a nice example. But it actually the same case that we are already talking about. Which is the "curse" itself. And I wrote above why I think that a self-curse (at least) is not a wish.
Jason Hare wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:02 pmבַּל־יֶחֱזָ֑יוּן Is 26.11.
They say it is a clear jussive.
Do you read this verb in this verse as jussive?
I can understand how they read it.
But what about you? Do you read it as jussive?
(I wonder what does it say if that is the example that chose to bring).
Jason Hare wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:02 pmThat would be a better argument. The independent jussive form (
יַ֫עַשׂ) is used in only one verse officially (2 Sam 2:6), and as the qri in another verse (Ruth 1:8
יַ֫עַשׂה ← יַ֫עַשׂ). This latter verse could be an example of the longer form being used as a jussive, which the Masoretes rejected.
You are right about that. surely there are cases that show that already in the biblical era there were switches with the forms. So I shouldn't have written that.
Jason Hare wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:02 pmJussives essentially express a wish. Here the person, in how I read it, is saying "It is my wish that God do x and y to me if I do not do what I'm saying right now." "I want God to punish me if I don't carry out what I'm saying." There is a sense in which just stating the wish as a future might very well be turning that wish (almost a self-invective) into a plain statement: "I am sure that God will do x and y if this should not be the case." In some sense, jussives and statements of certainty about the future have a strong overlap in more than just English and Hebrew.
I don't know if I understood you well, but are you saying what I wrote in this comment above?
I feel that it is not "I want God to punish me if I don't carry out what I'm saying".
But it is how you wrote later: "I am sure that God will do x and y if this should not be the case."
When someone curses the other or himself in the name of some force, he doesn't wish that the curse will occur, but the curse is a statement - a new condition was made in a new reality.
The wish is to connect A and B together.
But once the wish came true - and the A and B are connected, the B is no longer a wish. But it sure would happen, or sure not to happen - depending on the A. The wish is just wanting that connection to be made.
