B-Hebrew: The Biblical Hebrew Forum

Kenneth Greifer wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:53 pm Jason,
I am not going to discuss anything with Ethan unless he actually asks a real question or discusses something specific. I think he will do that later on. I agree that these topics are really for religious debating, and I don't want to do that here or anywhere, but I am interested in hearing different interpretations.

Of course! If he asks a question that is more directly related to the Hebrew language, something that is not determined a priori by our divergent religious positions, I’m right there with you.

Ethan:

At times “names” were mentioned, not as given names, but as references to what a person was like.

In so far as Biblical Hebrew verbs have no time reference, there is no time reference as to when the prophesy is fulfilled.

Karl W. Randolph.

kwrandolph wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:28 pm In so far as Biblical Hebrew verbs have no time reference, there is no time reference as to when the prophesy is fulfilled.

That’s such an odd conclusion to come to. Do you think it possible that a prophet would prophecy about the past rather than about the future?

Hello everyone,

Apologies for the repetitiveness of my post. I will refrain from posting such broad posts, and limit myself to purely linguistic inquiries from now on. My primary focus right now are the Messianic oracles of the Hebrew Bible, so apologies if my inquires typically revolve around that.

Jason Hare wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:13 pm

kwrandolph wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:28 pm In so far as Biblical Hebrew verbs have no time reference, there is no time reference as to when the prophecy is fulfilled.

That’s such an odd conclusion to come to. Do you think it possible that a prophet would prophecy about the past rather than about the future?

The traditional meaning of the word prophecy referred to the present as well as the future. The present meaning only to the future.

As to the fulfillment of the prophecy, is there anyone who fulfilled the qualifications indicated by the names in the prophecy, either before or in Isaiah’s day? If not, then he referred to a future event.

As to the grammatical conjugations of the verbs, as I mentioned above, they give no clue as to when the event takes place.

Karl W. Randolph.

kwrandolph wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 1:43 pm The traditional meaning of the word prophecy referred to the present as well as the future. The present meaning only to the future.

Excellent. I agree. It’s mostly about the future (warnings of what will happen as the result of disobedience), but also connected to the present (from the perspective of the prophet). Yes.

kwrandolph wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 1:43 pm As to the fulfillment of the prophecy, is there anyone who fulfilled the qualifications indicated by the names in the prophecy, either before or in Isaiah’s day? If not, then he referred to a future event.

Yes. If the child was born in that day (as per the prophecy), it was to indicate that God was with Judah and would not allow them to fall to the two kings that they had been afraid of. עִמָּ֫נוּ אֵל indicates that God is “with us,” with Judah, and (by corollary) opposed to our enemies. It does not mean that the child himself is God among men. If that is what you are asking, then no one has ever fulfilled it.

kwrandolph wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 1:43 pm As to the grammatical conjugations of the verbs, as I mentioned above, they give no clue as to when the event takes place.

Which is really irrelevant to the idea of prophecy specifically, given than you’ve stated yourself that prophecy is most readily touching on issues in the future (from the perspective of the prophet).

Jason Hare wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:58 pm

kwrandolph wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 1:43 pm As to the fulfillment of the prophecy, is there anyone who fulfilled the qualifications indicated by the names in the prophecy, either before or in Isaiah’s day? If not, then he referred to a future event.

Yes. If the child was born in that day (as per the prophecy), it was to indicate that God was with Judah and would not allow them to fall to the two kings that they had been afraid of. עִמָּ֫נוּ אֵל indicates that God is “with us,” with Judah, and (by corollary) opposed to our enemies. It does not mean that the child himself is God among men. If that is what you are asking, then no one has ever fulfilled it.

No, that’s not what the passage says. When it says that the child’s name is “God is with us”, that means that the child himself is “God is with us”. The “name” refers to the child’s nature.

I won’t argue whether that prophecy has been fulfilled or not, you already know my answer.

Karl W. Randolph.

kwrandolph wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:47 am

Jason Hare wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:58 pm

kwrandolph wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 1:43 pm As to the fulfillment of the prophecy, is there anyone who fulfilled the qualifications indicated by the names in the prophecy, either before or in Isaiah’s day? If not, then he referred to a future event.

Yes. If the child was born in that day (as per the prophecy), it was to indicate that God was with Judah and would not allow them to fall to the two kings that they had been afraid of. עִמָּ֫נוּ אֵל indicates that God is “with us,” with Judah, and (by corollary) opposed to our enemies. It does not mean that the child himself is God among men. If that is what you are asking, then no one has ever fulfilled it.

No, that’s not what the passage says. When it says that the child’s name is “God is with us”, that means that the child himself is “God is with us”. The “name” refers to the child’s nature.

I won’t argue whether that prophecy has been fulfilled or not, you already know my answer.

Karl W. Randolph.

Do you think that Isaiah's children's names refer to their nature in Isaiah 7:3 and 8:3, a remnant shall return and whatever you translate the other name as מַהֵ֥ר שָׁלָ֖ל חָ֥שׁ בַּֽז?

kwrandolph wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:47 am No, that’s not what the passage says. When it says that the child’s name is “God is with us”, that means that the child himself is “God is with us”. The “name” refers to the child’s nature.

I won’t argue whether that prophecy has been fulfilled or not, you already know my answer.

Karl W. Randolph.

Just to be sure, “Elijah” means “My God Yah.” You certainly don’t think that Elijah was our God, right?

Jason Hare wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:59 pm

kwrandolph wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:47 am No, that’s not what the passage says. When it says that the child’s name is “God is with us”, that means that the child himself is “God is with us”. The “name” refers to the child’s nature.

I won’t argue whether that prophecy has been fulfilled or not, you already know my answer.

Karl W. Randolph.

Just to be sure, “Elijah” means “My God Yah.” You certainly don’t think that Elijah was our God, right?

Are you kidding? Even your translation doesn’t make that case. Actually the translation should be “My God is Yah”.

Karl W. Randolph.