B-Hebrew: The Biblical Hebrew Forum

Posted: **Mon May 18, 2020 3:48 pm**

Jason Hare wrote:I have thought about it for a while, and I wanted to respond on this one. The sentence «Is it well with (ל) your old father?» has its correspondence in 2 Kings 4:26. Notice the following:

עַתָּה֮ רֽוּץ־נָ֣א לִקְרָאתָהּ֒ וֶֽאֱמָר־לָ֗הּ הֲשָׁל֥וֹם לָ֛ךְ הֲשָׁל֥וֹם לְאִישֵׁ֖ךְ הֲשָׁל֣וֹם לַיָּ֑לֶד וַתֹּ֖אמֶר שָׁלֽוֹם׃

We have here several instances of asking after someone's well-being.

הֲשָׁלוֹם לָךְ - "Is it well with you?"
הֲשָׁלוֹם לְאִישֵׁךְ - "Is it well with your husband?"
הֲשָׁלוֹם לַיֶּ֫לֶד - "Is it well with the child?" (in pause as יָלֶד)

The answer is simply שָׁלוֹם in all cases.

I have found this since; I was basically doing the ol' English "Are things good with you?" in my head (very popular in my neck of the woods in NW England), when good =/= well.

Nevertheless I have found a place where it seems to coincide with this usage:

Job 13:9
הֲ֭טוֹב כִּֽי־יַחְקֹ֣ר אֶתְכֶ֑ם אִם־כְּהָתֵ֥ל בֶּ֝אֱנ֗וֹשׁ תְּהָתֵ֥לּוּ בֽוֹ
Will it be well if he examines you? Or are you able to deceive him as easy as deceiving a human being?
Though obviously "good" can easily replace "well" in this context.

Also, when they gave the response to Joseph, it shouldn't have the interrogative heh attached to it (הֲטוֹב).

ducky/David also pointed this out. I'll blame it on a vowel pointing copy and paste error.

Posted: **Mon May 18, 2020 5:17 pm**

So, it seems that at the time, it's Ste, Jonathan, and me who are moving forward. We're done with (1), so I'll post (2) now. This one's a bit longer!

Exercise 30
(2) The servant of Abraham said unto them, ‘Behold I stood in the way and I asked the girl, saying, “Is there a place in thy house for me and for the men who are with me?”; and she said: “There is place for my lord and for his men.” And I gave (to) her the silver. And now, my master is old and the Lord hath blessed him, and he hath given all that he hath to his son Isaac whom Sarah his wife hath borne to him. And now, if it is good in your eyes, let us ask (Cohort.) the girl if she will be a wife to the son of my master, and she shall go after me to the house of my master.’

Posted: **Mon May 18, 2020 5:39 pm**

Exercise 30
(2) The servant of Abraham said unto them, ‘Behold I stood in the way and I asked the girl, saying, “Is there a place in thy house for me and for the men who are with me?”; and she said: “There is place for my lord and for his men.” And I gave (to) her the silver. And now, my master is old and the Lord hath blessed him, and he hath given all that he hath to his son Isaac whom Sarah his wife hath borne to him. And now, if it is good in your eyes, let us ask (Cohort.) the girl if she will be a wife to the son of my master, and she shall go after me to the house of my master.’

My submission:

Hidden Text: (2) וַיֹּ֫אמֶר אֲלֵיהֶם עֶ֫בֶד אַבְרָהָם הִנֵּה עָמַ֫דְתִּי בַּדֶּ֫רֶךְ וָאֶשְׁאַל אֶת־הַנַּעֲרָה לֵאמֹר הֲיֵשׁ מָקוֹם בְּבֵיתֵךְ לִי וְלַאֲנָשִׁים אֲשֶׁר עִמָּדִי וַתֹּ֫אמֶר מָקוֹם יֵשׁ לַאדֹנִי וְלַאֲנָשָׁיו וָאֶתֶּן־לָהּ כֶּ֫סֶף וְעַתָּה אֲדֹנִי זָקֵן וְיַהְוֶה בֵּרַךְ אֹתוֹ וְאֶת־כָּל־אֲשֶׁר־לוֹ הוּא נָתַן לִבְנוֹ לְיִצְחָק אֲשֶׁר יָֽלְדָה לוֹ שָׂרָה אִשְׁתּוֹ וְעַתָּה אִם יִיטַב בְּעֵינֶ֫יךָ נִשְׁאֲלָה אֶת־הַנַּעֲרָה אִם לְבֶן־אֲדֹנִי תִהְיֶה לְאִשָּׁה וְאַחֲרַי תֵּלֵךְ לְבֵית אֲדֹנִי׃

Posted: **Mon May 18, 2020 5:43 pm**

Jonathan Beck wrote:(1) Joseph saw his brothers among the (ones) coming to Egypt and he drew near unto them and he asked them, saying: ‘Is it well with (ל) your old father?’ and they said, ‘It is well, and behold our small brother hath come down with us’.ו44

Hidden Text

וַיַּרְא יוֹסֵף את־אֶחָיו מֵבָּאִים אל־מִצרָיִם וַיִּקרַב עַלֵיכֶם וַיִּשְׁעָלֵם הֲשָׁלוֹם לְאֲבְכֶם הַזָּקֵן וַיֹֹּאמְרוּ שָׁלוֹם וְהִנֵּה אָחֵנוּ הַקָּטוֹן יָרָד עִמָּנוּ

If you want to use partitive מִן, you should make "those coming" definite, and it would best not to abbreviate the preposition. Thus: מִן־הַבָּאִים.

Don't forget that "ask" has alef rather than ayin: וַיִּשְׁאָלֵם.

Also, the construct form of אָב is אֲבִי, and it is that form to which you add suffixes, so we should have אֲבִיכֶם "your father."

The form אָחִ֫ינוּ is singular "our brother," and אָחֵינוּ is plural "our brothers."

Good job!

Posted: **Mon May 18, 2020 5:54 pm**

Oh, so we're going with a bit longer text this time? I've translated up to the end of "There is place for my lord and for his men", so I'll post that for the time being. It's a bit late in England now, so will work on the rest tomorrow.

I've posted two versions: one without vowel points, the other with. Just because.

Hidden Text: ויאמר העבד אברהם אליהם הנה עמדתי בדרך ואשאל הנערה לאמר היש בביתך מקום לי ולאנשים אשר עמי ותאמר יש מקום לאדני ולאנשיו

וַיֹּאמֶר הָעֶבֶד אַבְרָהָם אֲלֵיהֶם הִנֵּה עָמַדְתִּי בַּדֶּרֶךְ וָאֶשְׁאַל הַנַּעֲרָה לֵאמֹר הֲיֵשׁ בְּבֵיתֵךְ מָקוֹם לִי וְלִאֲנָשִׁים אֲשֶׁר־עִמֹּי וַתֹּאמֶר יֵשׁ מָקוֹם לַאדֹנִי וְלִאֲנָשָׁיו

Posted: **Mon May 18, 2020 6:48 pm**

Ste,

For your consideration:

(1) The construct phrase "the slave of Abraham" — since "Abraham" is definite by nature (a proper name), what of the placement of the article with עֶ֫בֶד?

(2) The word שָׁאַל governs a certain preposition. You need to add it before הַנַּעֲרָה (because it is definite).

(3) If you're looking at the vowels, notice that עמי would be עִמִּי (not sure how a cholam got in there), but that the older form is עִמָּדִי. Also, the lamed on לאנשיו would be figured thus:
לְ + אֲנָשָׁיו ← *לְאֲנָשָׁיו ← לַאֲנָשָׁיו
The vocal sheva before the composite sheva resolves as a full patach.

Nice job so far!

Posted: **Mon May 18, 2020 6:50 pm**

(2) The servant of Abraham said unto them, ‘Behold I stood in the way and I asked the girl, saying, “Is there a place in thy house for me and for the men who are with me?”; and she said: “There is place for my lord and for his men.” And I gave (to) her the silver. And now, my master is old and the Lord hath blessed him, and he hath given all that he hath to his son Isaac whom Sarah his wife hath borne to him. And now, if it is good in your eyes, let us ask (Cohort.) the girl if she will be a wife to the son of my master, and she shall go after me to the house of my master.’

Hidden Text: וַיֹּאמֶר אֲלֵיהֶם הִנֵּה עָמַדְתִּי בַדֶרֶךְ וַאֶשְׁעַל הַנְּעַרָה לֵאמֹר הֲיֵשׁ מָקוֹם לִי בְּבֵתְּךָ וְהָאֲנָשִׁים עִמָדִּי וַתֹּאמֶר יֵשׁ לַאדֹנִי וּלְאֲנָשָׁיו וָאֵתֶּן לָהּ כֶּסֶף וְעַתָּה אדֹנִי זָקֵן וַיהוה בֶּרְכּוֹ
וַיְִתֶּן אֵלָיו כָל־אַשֶׁר לוֹ אֶל־יִצחַק בְּנוֹ אֲשֶׁר יָלְדָה לוֹ שָׂרָה וְעָתָה אִם־טוֹב בְּעֵנֶיךָ נִשְׁאַל אַנַחְנוּ אֶת־הַנְעֲרָה אִם תִּהְיֶה לָבֵן־אֲדֹנִי וַתֵּלֶךְ אַחֲרַי אֶל־בֵּית־אדֹנִי

Posted: **Tue May 19, 2020 3:11 am**

*Tries very hard not to read Jason's post concerning his previous sentence*

Here we go - rest of the (rather long) paragraph!

Hidden Text: No Vowel Points
ואתן לה הכסף ועתה אדני זקן ויברכהו יהוה ויתן את כל אשר לו לבנו ליצחק אשר תלד לו שרה אשתו
ועתה אם טוב בעיניך נשאלה הנערה אם תהי אשה לבן אדני ותלך אחרי לבית אדני
With Vowel Points
ַוָאֶתֵּן לָהּ הַכֶּ֖סֶף וְעַתָּ֕ה אֲדֹנִ֔י זָקֵ֣ן וַֽיְבָרְכֵ֖הוּ יהוה וַיִּתֵּן אֶת־כָּל־אֲשֶׁר־לוֹ לִבְנֽוֹ לְיִצְחָֽק אֲשֶׁר תֵּלֵד לוֹ שָׂרָה אִשְׁתּ֑וֹ
וְעַתָּ֕ה אִם־טוֹב בְּעֵינֶיךָ נִשְׁאֲלָ֖ה הַֽנַּעֲרָה אִם תְּהִי אִשָּׁה לְבֶן־אדֹנִי וַתֵּלֶךְ אַחֲרָֽי לְבֵית־אדֹנִי

Posted: **Tue May 19, 2020 3:47 am**

Jason Hare wrote:(1) The construct phrase "the slave of Abraham" — since "Abraham" is definite by nature (a proper name), what of the placement of the article with עֶ֫בֶד?

Ah, right yes. So no definite articles with construct nouns and names?

(2) The word שָׁאַל governs a certain preposition. You need to add it before הַנַּעֲרָה (because it is definite).

וָאֶשְׁאַ֣ל לַנַַּּעֲרָה?

(3) If you're looking at the vowels, notice that עמי would be עִמִּי (not sure how a cholam got in there), but that the older form is עִמָּדִי.

Neither do I, tbh! עִמִּי

Knowing this is based mainly on Genesis stories, does Weingreen encourage the use of older forms?

Also, the lamed on לאנשיו would be figured thus:
לְ + אֲנָשָׁיו ← *לְאֲנָשָׁיו ← לַאֲנָשָׁיו
The vocal sheva before the composite sheva resolves as a full patach.

Nice job so far!

Cheers, Jason. So essentially 'ְ + 'ֲ = 'ַ ?

Posted: **Tue May 19, 2020 4:00 am**

Jonathan Beck wrote:
Hidden Text

וַיֹּאמֶר אֲלֵיהֶם הִנֵּה עָמַדְתִּי בַדֶרֶךְ וַאֶשְׁעַל הַנְּעַרָה לֵאמֹר הֲיֵשׁ מָקוֹם לִי בְּבֵתְּךָ וְהָאֲנָשִׁים עִמָדִּי וַתֹּאמֶר יֵשׁ לַאדֹנִי וּלְאֲנָשָׁיו וָאֵתֶּן לָהּ כֶּסֶף וְעַתָּה אדֹנִי זָקֵן וַיהוה בֶּרְכּוֹ
וַיְִתֶּן אֵלָיו כָל־אַשֶׁר לוֹ אֶל־יִצחַק בְּנוֹ אֲשֶׁר יָלְדָה לוֹ שָׂרָה וְעָתָה אִם־טוֹב בְּעֵנֶיךָ נִשְׁאַל אַנַחְנוּ אֶת־הַנְעֲרָה אִם תִּהְיֶה לָבֵן־אֲדֹנִי וַתֵּלֶךְ אַחֲרַי אֶל־בֵּית־אדֹנִי

Just one quick correction here Jonathan - think you're missing a yod from בְּבֵתְּךָ , else your sentence reads something else here.

Secondly, I'm pretty sure the preposition ל- should be prefixed to all direct objects of the verb, so לִי and וְלַאֲנָשִׁים.

Edit:
Also, I think we've got a decision to make in this sentence:

And now, if it is good in your eyes, let us ask the girl...

Is this a singular "your", or a plural "your"? Context wise I actually think this should be plural.

Would happily like to amend my translation from בְּעֵינֶיךָ to בְּעֵינֵיכֶם.

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Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On