B-Hebrew: The Biblical Hebrew Forum

Chris Watts wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 11:23 am Chris Watts wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2024 7:14 am

(By the way, your comment about the end of verse 27 does not make sense to me either - sorry Karl).

Karl Replied : What do you know about ancient farming practices?

Only what I have read in Encyclopedias and a little knowledge about Victorian practises before the age of motors. Having said this - Fitches and cumin are not wheat, so why would you want to use anything bigger? And I do not see how a knowledge of ancient farming practises confirms your point that verse 27 indicates a failing harvest?

Read the whole verse. The first part of the verse refers to the usual tools used in threshing, then the verse concludes with the tools used with a meager harvest.

Chris Watts wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 11:23 am Karl Said : “Crushed” is not part of the definition here. Where the context includes grinding grain, the emphasis was on the making fine, not grinding.

But Karl, Isaiah chose this word specifically to emphasize the point that God does not necessarily crush (is the same as grind to powder, making fine elicits the same result) His Harvest.

Oy veh!!! Crushing is not explicitly part of the definition. Please get crushing out of your mind. Here the difference is between a breadstick and a full loaf of bread.

Chris Watts wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 11:23 am Karl also said : What Isaiah described was well known to the people of his time. What have you studied about ancient culture?

- Ancient Egyptian Bread making with Wild fungal spores and Bacteria which I actually make twice a week!

But seriously, do please clarify, do you see these verses as a parable as I have described above, or as an Agricultural stock market forecast?

This is a prophesy about a punishment that God brings on a people who turn their backs on him. One of the punishments listed in Deuteronomy 28 is crop failure, which he lists in different ways in that chapter.

Chris Watts wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 11:23 am There is no hint of a bad harvest at all anywhere.

You just don’t see it.

Chris Watts wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 11:23 am Chris watts

Karl W. Randolph.

Hi Karl, its is plain we differ on how to read these verses so I will respectfully acknowledge your perspective but disagree with all of it.

However, in the hope of addressing the issue as a complete whole, rather than picking on seperate hebrew words and meaning of clauses, may I be permitted to get a response from you on the following thought?

Verse 22 sets the precedent for the perspective that we are being asked to adopt on these verses. It is not for any casual slip of the pen that Isaiah wrote : וְעַתָּה֙ אַל־תִּתְלוֹצָ֔צוּ פֶּֽן־יֶחְזְק֖וּ מֽוֹסְרֵיכֶ֑ם כִּֽי־כָלָ֨ה וְנֶחֱרָצָ֜ה שָׁמַ֗עְתִּי מֵאֵ֨ת אֲדֹנָ֧י יְהוִ֛ה צְבָא֖וֹת עַל־כָּל־הָאָֽרֶץ. Be wise about what you are about to read, AND, this is for the whole Earth, not just for Israel.

(If a bad harvest was being predicted Isaiah has no need at all for a long waffly discourse smothered in cryptic references where he expressly demands one to think carefully about what he is about to say). A failing harvest as judgement needs not to be assigned to the speeches of lengthy cryptology and certainly requires no wisdom to understand.

From the middle of the chapter we read about the beginning of the Messianic era, then references to Israel during this Messianic time,then we read the result of this messianic time upon the whole earth in the form of a parable directed to Israel but for all the earth, for clearly verse 22 says the 'Whole Earth', this is purposeful. Some will say that this means the land of Israel, and if you think that then we are about to embark upon another exhausting exchange of rather long scriptures and lengthy arguments.

In summarising, what Isaiah predicts is not judgement without hope nor a failed harvest, but discipline in correct manner upon individuals and yes, the nation of Israel as a whole.

Chris watts

Chris Watts wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2024 6:38 am Hi Karl, its is plain we differ on how to read these verses so I will respectfully acknowledge your perspective but disagree with all of it.

However, in the hope of addressing the issue as a complete whole, rather than picking on seperate hebrew words and meaning of clauses, may I be permitted to get a response from you on the following thought?

Verse 22 sets the precedent for the perspective that we are being asked to adopt on these verses. It is not for any casual slip of the pen that Isaiah wrote : וְעַתָּה֙ אַל־תִּתְלוֹצָ֔צוּ פֶּֽן־יֶחְזְק֖וּ מֽוֹסְרֵיכֶ֑ם כִּֽי־כָלָ֨ה וְנֶחֱרָצָ֜ה שָׁמַ֗עְתִּי מֵאֵ֨ת אֲדֹנָ֧י יְהוִ֛ה צְבָא֖וֹת עַל־כָּל־הָאָֽרֶץ. Be wise about what you are about to read, AND, this is for the whole Earth, not just for Israel.

I don’t understand what you are trying to get at here. Do you understand it yourself?

“Be wise…” is that your translation of the verse? How do you get that?

Chris Watts wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2024 6:38 am (If a bad harvest was being predicted Isaiah has no need at all for a long waffly discourse smothered in cryptic references where he expressly demands one to think carefully about what he is about to say). A failing harvest as judgement needs not to be assigned to the speeches of lengthy cryptology and certainly requires no wisdom to understand.

Cryptic statements? What cryptic statements?

Chris Watts wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2024 6:38 am From the middle of the chapter we read about the beginning of the Messianic era, then references to Israel during this Messianic time,then we read the result of this messianic time upon the whole earth in the form of a parable directed to Israel but for all the earth, for clearly verse 22 says the 'Whole Earth', this is purposeful. Some will say that this means the land of Israel, and if you think that then we are about to embark upon another exhausting exchange of rather long scriptures and lengthy arguments.

Messianic era??? What verses are you talking about?

Chris Watts wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2024 6:38 am In summarising, what Isaiah predicts is not judgement without hope nor a failed harvest, but discipline in correct manner upon individuals and yes, the nation of Israel as a whole.

Chris watts

Your summary baffles me. I don’t see how you come to it at all.

Karl W. Randolph.

Ok Karl, let's shift from the very first verse to the last verse of Isaiah ch 28. Namely from V22 to V29.

Before I do though:

You asked :

Cryptic statements? What cryptic statements?

I am referring to the fact that you reckon these verses to be informing us of a food shortage - I then countered by explaining, trying to emphasise that if this is what you believe then this discourse of Isaiah's is indeed shrouded in a rather lengthy agricultural newsflash that is NOT obvious to the reader, hence Cryptic. Instead of saying, as we often read, the land will go hungry, or the people will suffer hunger, or the wheat and the fig will fail, or God will burn the land and there will be no water, I hope I have made my point clear here.

You Said :

“Be wise…” is that your translation of the verse? How do you get that?

I was not actually translating this verse Karl, however perhaps I should have included verse 23 by typing it, simply because of how Isaiah introduces the dialogue he is about to give. This is why I believed he was calling for people to think and consider carefully, requiring wisdom, by what is written in verse 23.

You Asked :

Messianic era??? What verses are you talking about?

I am referring to 28 Verses 16 to 18.
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Ok, now the last verse V29. Why do you think that Isaiah says : גַּם־זֹאת מֵעִם יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת יָצָאָה הִפְלִיא עֵצָה הִגְדִּיל תּוּשִׁיָּהThese are strange words to end with if all this is is just an agricultural statement about the condition of the economy, or even to say that this famine, or this shortage of food is also wisdom from God. So what do you think this is saying? Do you imagine that He is saying that GOD is very wise in counsel because He is able to make people go hungry???

Chris watts

Chris Watts wrote: Fri Jul 19, 2024 4:34 am Ok Karl, let's shift from the very first verse to the last verse of Isaiah ch 28. Namely from V22 to V29.

Before I do though:

You asked :

Cryptic statements? What cryptic statements?

I am referring to the fact that you reckon these verses to be informing us of a food shortage - I then countered by explaining, trying to emphasise that if this is what you believe then this discourse of Isaiah's is indeed shrouded in a rather lengthy agricultural newsflash that is NOT obvious to the reader, hence Cryptic.

The statement was not cryptic to Isaiah’s intended audience.

It may be cryptic to you, because you are largely ignorant of ancient farming practices.

Chris Watts wrote: Fri Jul 19, 2024 4:34 am You Asked :

Messianic era??? What verses are you talking about?

I am referring to 28 Verses 16 to 18.

How is this about a Messianic era? “…a stone of testing (assaying, for judgment)…? “I place judgment to a line” look back at verses 9–13 for what God refers to a line, in other words a perversion of God’s judgment. “And justice to something to be weighed” in other words justice is something to be negotiated? “Youall’s treaty with death…” hardly something from God. I could go on, but how is this a messianic era?

Chris Watts wrote: Fri Jul 19, 2024 4:34 am ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, now the last verse V29. Why do you think that Isaiah says : גַּם־זֹאת מֵעִם יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת יָצָאָה הִפְלִיא עֵצָה הִגְדִּיל תּוּשִׁיָּהThese are strange words to end with if all this is is just an agricultural statement about the condition of the economy, or even to say that this famine, or this shortage of food is also wisdom from God.

I don’t see anything here connected with “wisdom from God”

Chris Watts wrote: Fri Jul 19, 2024 4:34 am So what do you think this is saying? Do you imagine that He is saying that GOD is very wise in counsel because He is able to make people go hungry???

This is just judgment from God.

Chris Watts wrote: Fri Jul 19, 2024 4:34 am Chris watts

The whole chapter is a chapter of judgment against a wicked people who don’t follow God. One of the judgments that God decreed against a disobedient people is famine.

Karl W. Randolph.

Karl Karl, I was so reluctant to respond because I have tried so hard to avoid the theological in the hope that you might perceive something other than a declaration of Famine as a punishment to Israel, this chapter is oh so much more than that - this chapter is absolutely not about God declaring a destructive end to Ephraim or Judah! there are plenty enough prophetic words in many books and chapters that are declaring this outright. This chapter begins by declaring Ephraim's (Northern Israel's) very bad behaviour with its lack of morality and absence of true justice and then proceeds to declare in three places the mercy of God :

Verse 16 points to the establishment of the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus; verse 18 points to when their covenant with Death will be Annulled "Forgive them for they know not what they do", this accompanies the multitude of promises about the restoration of Jerusalem away from the Gentiles, then their physical restoration as already has in part happened, then their spiritual; and verse 23 declares the hope of God's wisdom and care and justice that not all are treated equally nor with the same measurement or yard-stick, and not all in the same season.

Verse 16 is doubly prophetic in that it points to the then and to the now. God will Himself have compassion in His dealings with everybody because the main body of Israel has failed to do this, pointing out that there is both a time for each season of action, planting and uprooting, that His people will be threshed but not all in the same manner. Verse 26 says וְיִסְּרוֹ לַמִּשְׁפָּט אֱלֹהָיו יוֹרֶנּוּ There are two important points about this interjection that I Immediately pick up on, Firstly what a strange thing to insert in the middle of a supposed declaration about a coming famine as you assume. Secondly, please notice that carefully chosen word וְיִסְּרוֹ which means to chasten or discipline. For His God teaches and disciplines.

Throughout the scriptures Threshing is prominent as a symbol of God's dealings with mankind and not so much to do with agricultural predicaments. Consider if you will Isaiah 21:10 מְדֻשָׁתִי וּבֶן־גָּרְנִי אֲשֶׁר שָׁמַעְתִּי מֵאֵת יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת אֱלֹהֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל הִגַּדְתִּי לָכֶם God's Punishment is always mixed with Hope, His judgments ALWAYS come with a promise of restoration, HIs final acts of discipline ALWAYS come with words of Grace and Mercy either before during or following a prophetic discourse.

Consider Isaiah 27:12 הָיָה בַּיּוֹם הַהוּא יַחְבֹּט יְהוָה מִשִּׁבֹּלֶת הַנָּהָר עַד־נַחַל מִצְרָיִם וְאַתֶּם תְּלֻקְּטוּ לְאַחַד אֶחָד בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל׃ His people being sorted out (threshed), consider again in Isaiah 30 18 וְלָכֵן יְחַכֶּה יְהוָה לַחֲנַנְכֶם וְלָכֵן יָרוּם לְרַחֶמְכֶם כִּי־אֱלֹהֵי מִשְׁפָּט יְהוָה אַשְׁרֵי כָּל־חוֹכֵי לוֹ, how God allows His people to err so that He can be Gracious and wants to exalt His Name, in fact you will find this everywhere in scripture especially in Ezekiel and even in the song of Moses - Deuteronomy 32:43 which people tend to forget, rather they focus on Israel's sinfulness and God's judgements and forget the purpose of His discipline was never to wipe away but to exalt His Name through them, and this He will accomplish.

Chris watts

Chris Watts wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2024 9:31 am Karl Karl, I was so reluctant to respond because I have tried so hard to avoid the theological

Sorry, all of the Bible is theological, some more explicitly than others.

Chris Watts wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2024 9:31 am in the hope that you might perceive something other than a declaration of Famine as a punishment to Israel, this chapter is oh so much more than that

It also describes how Israel is rebelling against God, what are the signs of that rebellion and therefore why God is punishing them. An example are verses 9–13.

Chris Watts wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2024 9:31 am - this chapter is absolutely not about God declaring a destructive end to Ephraim or Judah! there are plenty enough prophetic words in many books and chapters that are declaring this outright.

Where anywhere in the Bible is an individual famine equivalent to a destructive end to Ephraim or Judah?

Chris Watts wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2024 9:31 am This chapter begins by declaring Ephraim's (Northern Israel's) very bad behaviour with its lack of morality and absence of true justice and then proceeds to declare in three places the mercy of God :

Verse 16 points to the establishment of the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus;

As I stated before, I don’t see that at all. Rather I see this as the coming of judgment.

Chris Watts wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2024 9:31 am verse 18 points to when their covenant with Death will be Annulled

Are you sure that that’s the correct and only acceptable translation of the verse?

Chris Watts wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2024 9:31 am "Forgive them for they know not what they do", this accompanies the multitude of promises about the restoration of Jerusalem away from the Gentiles,

Where are “Gentiles” mentioned here?

Chris Watts wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2024 9:31 am then their physical restoration as already has in part happened, then their spiritual; and verse 23 declares the hope of God's wisdom and care and justice that not all are treated equally nor with the same measurement or yard-stick, and not all in the same season.

I don’t see how you get that, as what follows is a statement of judgment.

Sorry, I ran out of time to respond to all of your points at this time.

Chris Watts wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2024 9:31 am …in fact you will find this everywhere in scripture especially in Ezekiel and even in the song of Moses - Deuteronomy 32:43 which people tend to forget, rather they focus on Israel's sinfulness and God's judgements and forget the purpose of His discipline was never to wipe away but to exalt His Name through them, and this He will accomplish.

Chris watts

I don’t see where even once I mentioned anything that would contradict this final statement.

Karl W. Randolph.

kwrandolph wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2024 11:34 pm

Chris Watts wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2024 9:31 am - this chapter is absolutely not about God declaring a destructive end to Ephraim or Judah! there are plenty enough prophetic words in many books and chapters that are declaring this outright.

Where anywhere in the Bible is an individual famine equivalent to a destructive end to Ephraim or Judah?

Chris Watts wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2024 9:31 am "Forgive them for they know not what they do", this accompanies the multitude of promises about the restoration of Jerusalem away from the Gentiles,

Where are “Gentiles” mentioned here?


Karl W. Randolph.

Karl, I am not in a famine mood anymore, but since you forced my hand I had to rise to the challenge and kindly point you to a scripture that popped into my tired head this morning when I read your reply : Joel 1:15 - 20. I only do this out of a simple response rather than a discussion, it's not actually meant to mean anything, but it lingered in my brain and needed to find its way to you!.

As for your response about the 'Gentiles' - I ask you does the meaning have to be explicitly written in order to be inferred ? : then in an unquestionably Karl fashion : "where is it inferred? I see no inference".

As for the rest of this discussion I respectfully resign.

Chris watts