B-Hebrew: The Biblical Hebrew Forum

Karl,

When you write and then submit a post, there is a short period of time when you can edit that posting. I don't recall whether "editing" includes "deleting" that post.

But I'm not sure if that is your question. As moderator, I can delete posts, edit them whenever I chose. Regular members do not have this ability. If you could point out an example of such a duplicate posting, I can delete one of them.

Sorry if this doesn't meet your need.

Kirk

Adding a phonetic table to the discussion The sound in question is voiceless lateral fricative. Its IPA symbol is ɬ

Hi Jonathan,

Thanks for that.

In this picture, it shows that also Ge'ez has this sound. But according to what I know (and maybe I'm wrong), Ge'ez also lost its sound, and its ש stands in relationship to Hebrew in the same way Arabic does.
I mean that:
Hebrew's ש=SH is Arabic/Ge'ez S
Hebrew's ש=S is Arabic/Ge'ez SH

(There is another ש in Hebrew which is based on the Semitic TH - but that is not the case here).

**************************
This sound of the rolled-tongue=S is found in Old South Arabian languages (no relation to Arabic).

David Hunter: I already answered all your questions, why don’t you listen to my answers?

Karl W. Randolph.

Hi Karl,

I'm sorry if I didn't catch that.
I read again your last comment and I still didn't see it.

In my last comment to you, I wrote only one question (about the "couincidence" of Arabic differing the same roots that are differed by Aramaic/Hebrew).

If you want, you can write here again your answer that I missed before (and I still can't find it).

Kirk Lowery wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:00 pm Karl,

When you write and then submit a post, there is a short period of time when you can edit that posting. I don't recall whether "editing" includes "deleting" that post.

When I saw that there had been a software glitch that had posted my message twice, I then looked for a means to delete the duplicate message. Not finding one, I tried editing the duplicate to being an empty file, but then the software didn’t allow me to post an empty message. That’s when I edited the message to the question on how to delete duplicates.

Kirk Lowery wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:00 pmBut I'm not sure if that is your question. As moderator, I can delete posts, edit them whenever I chose. Regular members do not have this ability. If you could point out an example of such a duplicate posting, I can delete one of them.

Sorry if this doesn't meet your need.

Kirk

Thank you. That means I’ll have to ask you to delete a duplicate message, rather than being able to do it myself. You answered my question. Thanks again.

Karl W. Randolph.

Jemoh66 wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:23 am Adding a phonetic table to the discussion

Thanks for the table. If it’s correct, it indicates that Aramaic is the source that split the Hebrew ש into two phonemes in post-Biblical Hebrew. Biblical era Hebrew was like Phoenician, the ש had one phoneme with one sound.

Karl W. Randolph.

How does this table proves that Aramaic is the source that split the Hebrew ש into two phonemes in post-Biblical Hebrew.

According to this table, Also Ge'ez had this S' sound for the ש.
Does Ge'ez had something to do with Aramaic?
If Aramaic is the source that splited the ש into two phonemes, then how come Ge'ez got that?
(And as far as I know, it is more of the south Arabian languages, and not Ge'ez)

I don't understand it.

And also, to say that one phoneme was split into two phoneme in the post biblical era (or in the biblical era) it kinda impossible.

***
I hope you're not confusing by seeing the ש/ס in the Aramaic section in the table, and think that it talks about two phonemes.
It just says that Aramaic started to write the the ש=s' as ס=s
Just a matter of writing
(as you saw yourself - when I wrote (the later) עסר and you pointed to Daniel's עשר)
It has nothing to do with "another phoneme".

***
You will not able to prove what you are trying to prove unless you'll find the answer of why Arabic (and Ge'ez) has the same "split" in sounds in the same roots that Hebrew and Aramaic Have.

And also, this consonant of this "rolled-tongued-S" is still found in other Semitic langauge. So it is not a "made-up thing".
****

David, you're on solid ground here. Here's a link to Gary Rendsburg's Ancient Hebrew Phonology.

https://jewishstudies.rutgers.edu/docma ... ology/file

And here's a pic of the section on the /ś/ phoneme (IPA: [ɬ])

kwrandolph wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:18 pm

Jemoh66 wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:23 am Adding a phonetic table to the discussion

Thanks for the table. If it’s correct, it indicates that Aramaic is the source that split the Hebrew ש into two phonemes in post-Biblical Hebrew. Biblical era Hebrew was like Phoenician, the ש had one phoneme with one sound.

Karl W. Randolph.

Karl,
As you can see from my last post, what is attributed to Aramaic influence is the merging of /ś/ and /s/, which is the opposite of your contention. The linguistic evidence points toward the existence of /ś/ and /š/ in Hebrew before late Aramaic influence. These two phonemes were represented by the letter ש. The phone /s/ existed and had always been represented by the letter ס