1 Kings 10:22 - Carthage & Monkeys

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Saboi
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:06 pm

1 Kings 10:22 - Carthage & Monkeys

Postby Saboi » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:55 am

This is the most anachronistic verse in the Book of Kings, Solomon reigned around 970–931 BCE
and yet the Carthaginian colonies were bringing in goods to Tyre and Carthage that was founed
around 814 BCE.

Inventory
Gold
Silver
Ivory
Apes
Monkey

There are contradictory translations for תכיים some oddly translate Baboons.

תוכיים (TUKIIM)
- πελεκητῶν (1Ki 10:22 )
- πιθήκων (2Ch 9:21 )

Strabo mentions a place called 'monkey Islands' known as Pithecussæ who say that the Pitheci (monkeys) are called by the Tyrrhenians, Arimi. Pithecussæ which lie in front of the Cymæan territory.

Monkey Island
Pithecussæ was peopled by a colony of Eretrians and Chalcidians, which was very prosperous on account of the fertility of the soil and the productive gold-mines; however, they abandoned the island on account of civil dissensions, and were ultimately driven out by earthquakes, and eruptions of fire, sea, and hot waters. - Strab. 5.4.9
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ection%3D9

The authors of 1 Kings may have being equated with Aristotle.

Aristotle - History of Animals , Book II Part 8
Some animals share the properties of man and the quadrupeds, as the ape(Kebos), the monkey(Pithkon), and the baboon(Kunokefalos) , The monkey is a tailed ape, The baboon resembles the ape in form, only that it is bigger and stronger, more like a dog in face,


קוֹף - κῆβος (Kebos) "Ape" ( without a tail)
תכיים - πιθήκων ( Pithkon) "Monkey" ( with a tail)

We know from Aristotle that תכיים is not a Baboon as it reads in the NIV.
Lee Mcgee

R.J. Furuli
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:51 am

Re: 1 Kings 10:22 - Carthage & Monkeys

Postby R.J. Furuli » Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:11 pm

Dear Lee,

To be honest, I do not understand the points with most of your posts, when you put Hebrew and Greek words side by side. But in this post there is a point, that Tyre and Carthage were not founded when Solomon reigned. Please give a detailed discussion of the evidence that that support your claim.


Best regards,

Rolf J. Furuli
Stavern
Norway

Saboi
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: 1 Kings 10:22 - Carthage & Monkeys

Postby Saboi » Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:59 pm

1 Kings 9:12
Hiram came out from Tyre to see the cities which Solomon had given him; and they pleased him not

"Tomb of Hiram" (Qabr Hiram) dates from the Persian period, 4–6 centuries after the presumed time of Hiram

o Hiram I's relations with Solomon, king of Israel, are often re-dated by scholars to the reign of Hiram II and the Israelite king Ahaz


I always thought of Solomon as a duplicate of Hezekiah due too 1 Kings 7, that depicts the construction of
an Aqueduct, that was build by Hezekiah and detailed in Ezekiel.

Hezekiah was the governor of Judea between 350 to 333 BCE
Image

This explains the Persian anachronism in 1 Kings
Lee Mcgee

R.J. Furuli
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:51 am

Re: 1 Kings 10:22 - Carthage & Monkeys

Postby R.J. Furuli » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:48 am

Dear Lee,

Have you ever herd about "the Problem of Induction." Please look at its definition and examples.

You cannot just show some pictures and say:"This explains the Persian anachronism in 1 Kings." With all resept for you as a person, your answer is pure nonsense! When you claim that Tyre and Carthage did not exist in the days of Solomon, you must point to data that show that. Your opinion of of Solomon as a duplicate of Hezekiah is neither evidence nor proof. So please, refer to archaeological finds and/or dated material to substantiate your claim.


Best regards,

Rolf J. Furuli
Stavern
Norway.

Saboi
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: 1 Kings 10:22 - Carthage & Monkeys

Postby Saboi » Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:40 pm

There is no archaeological evidence for a dark age empire in the Levant, however the Levant was part of the Persian Empire and unified as a province, that the Empire of Solomon seems to be modelled after and the Persian divided the province
into twelve, so that each of the twelve divisions had to provide tribute for one month of the year and each province had a central treasure house, the temple of Solomon.

1 Kings 4:7
And Solomon had twelve officers over all Israel, which provided victuals for the king and his household: each man his month in a year made provision.
Lee Mcgee

R.J. Furuli
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:51 am

Re: 1 Kings 10:22 - Carthage & Monkeys

Postby R.J. Furuli » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:46 am

Dear Lee,

Your answer is a typical example of an ignorance of the Problem of Induction. George Darwin, the son of Charles, invented the theory that the moon had been one piece with the earth, but that it had pulled away from the still molten earth. What would this theory predict? That the earth and the moon had a similar composition. A test of this prediction was not possible in Darwin's time. But now it has been done, and the prediction is correct. Does the fact that the moon and the earth have the same composition prove Darwin's hypothesis? Not at all! Because there can be many other explanations of the similar compopsition than that the earth and the moon one were one piece. This is the Problem of Induction—there are many different possible explanations of a certain situation, and you cannot know which one is correct. You should also read about Duhem-Quines Problem, which is related to the Problem of Induction.

If you find similarities between the Empire of Solomon and the Persian Empire, you cannot draw the conclusion that Solomon's Empire is modelled after the Persian Empire—that is a completely unscientific conclusion. There can be many other explanations of the similarities, if such exist.

So, you have not given evidence for your claim of anachronistic verses in 1 Kings. You still have the oportunity to Present evidence (NOT SPECULATION), if such evidence exists.


Best regards,


Rolf J. Furuli
Stavern
Norway

Saboi
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: 1 Kings 10:22 - Carthage & Monkeys

Postby Saboi » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:09 am

You need to understand that there is no evidence for King Solomon in the dark ages of the Levant , the main evidence is the script, the Dead Sea Scrolls are written in Imperial Aramaic, creating during the reign of Darius I, during this time, the Elephantine colony was flourishing, that was founded by Psamtik I as a colony of Greeks (Ionian & Carians).

Are the authors of the Old Testament aware of the existence of Elephantine?

δάφνη
1 Kings 11:19 - Tahpenes (תחפניס) the Queen
Jeremiah 43:9 - Pharaoh's house in Tahpanhes(תחפנחס)
Ezekiel 30:18 - Tehaphnehes (תחפנחס)
Genesis 41:45 - Zaphnathpaaneah (צפנת פענח) *δαφνηφάγος
1 Samuel 2:34 - Phinehas(פינחס) and Hophni (חפני)
Exodus 6:25 - Phinehas(פינחס)

Herodotus 2:30
And still in my time the Persians hold these posts as they were held in the days of Psammetichus; there are Persian guards at Elephantine and at Daphnae.

Psamtik_I
The pharaoh proceeded to establish close relations with archaic Greece and also encouraged many Greek settlers to establish colonies in Egypt and serve in the Egyptian army. In particular, he settled some Greeks at Tahpanhes (Daphnae).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daphne
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psamtik_I
Lee Mcgee

R.J. Furuli
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:51 am

Re: 1 Kings 10:22 - Carthage & Monkeys

Postby R.J. Furuli » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:17 am

Dear Lee,

You are wrong in connection with the language of the DSS. 87% of the DSS are written in Hebrew. The writers tried to write Classical Hebrew, and to a great extent they succeeded. Only 13% of the DSS are written in Aramaic, and that is not Imperial Aramaic. Imperial Aramaic was not created in the time of Darius I, but this language was used in Assyria and in Babylon in the 8th century BCE, Cuneiform tablets show this.

As for the age of the Biblical languages, see my book, When Was the Book of Daniel Written? A Philological, Linguistic, and Historical Approach. Chapter 3 has a detailed analysis of the Hebrew of Daniel, and it is compared with Classical Hebrew and DSS Hebrew. Chapter 4 has a detailed analysis of the Aramaic of Daniel, and it is compared with the DSS Aramaic, and the Aramaic of the inscriptions from the 7th to the 9th century BCE. A great part of the Aramaic vocabulary of Daniel is found in the mentioned inscriptions.

The name תחפניס is found one time in the Elephantine documents, and the word refers to a region and not to a person.
The words תחפנחס, צפנת פענח, פינחס,and חפני are not found in the Elephantine documents.

If I understand you correctly, your claim is that it is Solomon who did not exist when Carthage and Tyre existed and not vice versa. There is much indirect evidence that the history of the reign of Solomon is correct, for example in connection with what Solomon is said to have achieved and geographical names. But in this connection we must take the Problem of Induction into account—indirect evidence does not represent proofs. However, there is direct evidence in cuneiform sources of kings that reigned after Solomon, In my book Assyrian, Babylonian, Egyptian, and Persian Chronology Volume II, Assyrian, Babylonian, and Egyptian Chronology (second edition 2013, 150-154) there is a list of 12 kings in Israel and Judah that are mentioned in cuneiform sources. The first king on the list is Ahab (940-919) and the synchronism between the 12 kings and and Assyrian kings are demonstrated. This evidence shows that the history of Israel and Judah from 940 BCE, that is presented in the Tanach, is correct. This also lends credence to the view that the presentation of the history of Solomon is correct.


Best regards,


Rolf J. Furuli
Stavern
Norway

Saboi
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: 1 Kings 10:22 - Carthage & Monkeys

Postby Saboi » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:38 am

תחפנחס, צפנת פענח, פינחס, חפני, תחפניס are all variants of δάφνη (Daphne) a name that came with the Ionian colonies
and namesake for Jews and probably the tribal deity, Yahweh.

Aramaic of the inscriptions from the 7th to the 9th century BCE are in the Phoenician Script
were-as the Hebrew Script descends from the Imperial script of the Persian Empire.

, Aramaic (as had been used in that region) was adopted by the conquerors as the "vehicle for written communication between the different regions of the vast empire with its different peoples and languages. The use of a single official language, which modern scholarship has dubbed Official Aramaic or Imperial Aramaic, can be assumed to have greatly contributed to the astonishing success of the Achaemenids in holding their far-flung empire together for as long as they did


David & Solomon belong too the mythological realm and Israeli scholars admit they are fictitious.

The author of Daniel gave Nebuchadnezzar a short reign, even though the historical one reigned
43 years and Daniel seem to be unaware of the existence of Nabonidus.

Darius the Mede > King Cyrus (According to Daniel)

Daniel confused the Asiatic title of Alexander the Great, Κύριος της Ασίας ( כורש משיח) which solves the broken chronology of the Bible, King Cyrus is mentioned in the continuous dialogue of Hezekiah in Isaiah 45:1.
Lee Mcgee

Saboi
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: 1 Kings 10:22 - Carthage & Monkeys

Postby Saboi » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:50 am

DANIEL is modelled after Aristander

Αρίστανδρος
* בלטשאצר ( Blstasr > Brstadr > Brstandr > Aristander)
* ארידש < אלידן < דניאל > ἀριστᾶν

Dream interpreter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristander
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_romance
Lee Mcgee


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