YHWH Elohim - translation as YHWH the powerful? or YHWH the power?

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ralph
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YHWH Elohim - translation as YHWH the powerful? or YHWH the power?

Postby ralph » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:27 pm

Hi

I understand that Elohim has some variety to its meaning..

Can YHWH Elohim he translated as YHWH of the powers? YHWH of the powerful? YHWH the powerful YHWH of the spiritual beings? YHWH the spiritual being?

So, I think there's a few questions there..

Q) Whether the first noun YHWH is construct, in which case it's two nouns and of the form A of B?
Q) Whether the second word (Elohim), can be an adjective. So the first word (YHWH) is a noun and the second word Elohim, is an adjective?
Q) Whether it's more apt to translate Elohim as power/powerful or as spiritual being ?

And regarding the third question.. (Whether it's more apt to translate Elohim as power/powerful or as spiritual being ?) I am aware that in the book "the unseen realm" by michael heiser, he translates elohim as spritual entity/entities, because he sees references to YHWH and the elohim, and to the samuel after samuel died, though he doesn't mention moses being an elohim to aharon and to pharoah. I see it can be power/authority/God/spiritual being. Besides being a collective noun sometimes singular sometimes plural.

ralph zak

kwrandolph
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Re: YHWH Elohim - translation as YHWH the powerful? or YHWH the power?

Postby kwrandolph » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:36 pm

ralph wrote:I understand that Elohim has some variety to its meaning..


Not that I know of in Hebrew. It’s sometimes used metaphorically, but that practice doesn’t change its meaning.

ralph wrote:So, I think there's a few questions there..

Q) Whether the first noun YHWH is construct, in which case it's two nouns and of the form A of B?


The name YHWH is not in construct.

ralph wrote:Q) Whether the second word (Elohim), can be an adjective. So the first word (YHWH) is a noun and the second word Elohim, is an adjective?


The second word is a plural noun.

ralph wrote:Q) Whether it's more apt to translate Elohim as power/powerful or as spiritual being ?


There needs to be the recognition of how the ancient Hebrews used language.

ralph wrote:And regarding the third question.. (Whether it's more apt to translate Elohim as power/powerful or as spiritual being ?) I am aware that in the book "the unseen realm" by michael heiser, he translates elohim as spritual entity/entities, because he sees references to YHWH and the elohim, and to the samuel after samuel died, though he doesn't mention moses being an elohim to aharon and to pharoah. I see it can be power/authority/God/spiritual being. Besides being a collective noun sometimes singular sometimes plural.

ralph zak


The ancient Hebrews used language actively, indicating function, unlike modern Westerners who use language indicating form. So for the example of Moses “being a god” to Aaron and Pharaoh, the action is that Moses functioned the same way to Aaron and Pharaoh as God would, if he spoke directly to Aaron and Pharaoh.

As for the witch of Endor, there has been much debate about what she actually saw. Did she see God leaving the earth? Did she interpret what she saw according to the idolatrous beliefs that she had? Because she was not a follower of God, can we trust her description? Did she say what she said just to impress Saul?

Starting with Genesis 1, we see that God acts into history. The term is a noun, referring to a personality. It’s also used to refer to the false gods of the nations, while clearly labeling them as false.

Karl W. Randolph.

talmid56
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Re: YHWH Elohim - translation as YHWH the powerful? or YHWH the power?

Postby talmid56 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:56 pm

In the vast majority of cases, "Yahweh God" is the appropriate translation of YHWH Elohim in English. (Yes, I realize that some disagree about the correct vowels for YHWH.) Note that "Jehovah" is an artificial construct never used by the Jews in ancient times. And, LORD is a substitute, not a translation, for YHWH.
Dewayne Dulaney
דואיין דוליני

כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
--(E 84:11) 84:12 תהלים

ralph
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Re: YHWH Elohim - translation as YHWH the powerful? or YHWH the power?

Postby ralph » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:42 am

@talmud yes I know that i'm not asking about that.

@kwrandolph You say that YHWH is not in the construct. How do we know that YHWH is not in the construct?

How does a proper noun / name, change, when in the construct? I guess you might agree the second noun wouldn't change? I can't see how you know/determine that the first noun is not in the construct?

Ralph Zak

R.J. Furuli
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Re: YHWH Elohim - translation as YHWH the powerful? or YHWH the power?

Postby R.J. Furuli » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:27 am

Dear Dewayne,

You wrote:

In the vast majority of cases, "Yahweh God" is the appropriate translation of YHWH Elohim in English. (Yes, I realize that some disagree about the correct vowels for YHWH.) Note that "Jehovah" is an artificial construct never used by the Jews in ancient times. And, LORD is a substitute, not a translation, for YHWH.


You are correct when you say that "God" is a good translation for 'elohim, and that "LORD" is a substitute for "YHWH." However, your words that "'Jehovah'" is an artificial construct never used by the Jews in ancient times," is problematic. The form "Jehovah" with initial "J" is a latinized form of "Yehowa" that is used in English. The argument that "Jehovah" is an "artificial construct" has no basis.

In my book: The Tetragram—Its Pronunciation, its use in the New Testament, and its pronunciation (2017) I present much evidence showing that the two-syllabic "Yahweh" is an artificial form that never was used by the Jews in ancient times. I also give much evidence from the Tanakh and other Hebrew sources that the name had three syllables, that the two first syllables were ye-ho, and that the last would be wa or . Cuneiform script has both consonants and syllables, and the full form of the name is found in cuneiform documents as ie-'o-wa. Thus, there is very strong evidence that the Jews in ancient times pronounced God's name as ye-ho-wa.


Best regards,

Rolf J. Furuli
Stavern
Norway

R.J. Furuli
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Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:51 am

Re: YHWH Elohim - translation as YHWH the powerful? or YHWH the power?

Postby R.J. Furuli » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:40 am

Dear Ralph,

You wrote:

I understand that Elohim has some variety to its meaning..

Can YHWH Elohim he translated as YHWH of the powers? YHWH of the powerful? YHWH the powerful YHWH of the spiritual beings? YHWH the spiritual being?


I will say that "'elohim" does not have any meaning at all. But it has a reference, and that is "God." Please look for the difference between meaning and reference in Ogden's triangle. In all the old Semitic languages, a form of 'el or a compund with 'el refers to god. These words are always substantives. It is not possible to tranlate 'elohim as anything but "god" or "gods," if the context shows a plural reference. The words "power" or "powerful" are out of the question.


Best regards,


Rolf J. Furuli
Stavern
Norway

Saboi
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Re: YHWH Elohim - translation as YHWH the powerful? or YHWH the power?

Postby Saboi » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:16 pm

You may have noticed that the New Testament reads Elohim as 'O Theos', always with a preceding definite article because they are reading 'O' from Al-, ὁ-θεον > ὁ-εον > אל-הים'. In Genesis 6:2, אלהים is ἡρῷον and names prefixed Al- is ἠρῶ- 'love warmly, desirable. heroic, desire passionately,' that probably originate the Al- as an article, similar too ἀγά- 'wonder, amazing' that is the -אח in אחיטוב that equates with ἀγαθοῦ 'well-born, gentle, good'.
Lee Mcgee

Isaac Fried
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Re: YHWH Elohim - translation as YHWH the powerful? or YHWH the power?

Postby Isaac Fried » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:25 am

אל EL, is a variant of על, 'elevated, superior, lofty'. The ending הים of אלוהים ELOHIYM is הם, 'they'.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

ralph
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Re: YHWH Elohim - translation as YHWH the powerful? or YHWH the power?

Postby ralph » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:34 am

kwrandolph wrote: "The name YHWH is not in construct."

^
I'm wondering if/how we can know that YHWH is not in the construct?

Also are there many cases where we have two nouns and we don't translate them with "of" in between?

Ralph Zak

kwrandolph
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Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: YHWH Elohim - translation as YHWH the powerful? or YHWH the power?

Postby kwrandolph » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:08 pm

Ralph:

After thinking about your question for a couple of days, I came to the conclusion, is there any example of a personal name in Tanakh that is in construct? I can’t think of any. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t any examples, just that I don’t remember that any exist. If you can find any examples of undoubtably personal names that are in construct, I’ll be surprised and thank you for the information.

Karl W. Randolph.


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