Names of Places

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sethmknorr
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Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:37 pm

Names of Places

Postby sethmknorr » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:04 pm

I have read that people believe that Kenite קֵינִ֖י in (1 Samuel 15:6) are people named after Cain קַ֔יִן (Genesis 4:1).

This really doesn't make sense since Cain's people would have been killed in the flood. It seems like it would make more sense that the Kenites would be named after Cainan קֵינָ֔ן (genesis 5:10).

Second, what are the odds that Salem שָׁלֵ֔ם (Genesis 14:18) is named after Shelah שָׁ֑לַח (Genesis 10:24)

In both cases, it appears to me that both names are pretty similar.

I realize it is hard to be dogmatic on this, but would it be plausible?

Interested to hear everyone's thoughts.

Thanks,

Seth Knorr

Saboi
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Re: Names of Places

Postby Saboi » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:17 am

קֵינִ֖י ,קנז, קַ֔יִן and קֵינָ֔ן are all forms of φοῖνιξ 'Phoenician', 'ק/φ'

שָׁ֑לַח/στέλλω 'dispatch, send out, to despatch on an expedition.
עבר/ἠπείρω, ' to make into mainland, land opposite the sea, a continent, esp. of Asia.
Lee Mcgee

kwrandolph
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Re: Names of Places

Postby kwrandolph » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:15 am

sethmknorr wrote:I have read that people believe that Kenite קֵינִ֖י in (1 Samuel 15:6) are people named after Cain קַ֔יִן (Genesis 4:1).

This really doesn't make sense since Cain's people would have been killed in the flood. It seems like it would make more sense that the Kenites would be named after Cainan קֵינָ֔ן (genesis 5:10).


Not likely, seeing as only one of his sons had descendants that survived the flood. It’s more likely that there was another person after the flood whose name was קין whose descendants were named after him.

sethmknorr wrote:Second, what are the odds that Salem שָׁלֵ֔ם (Genesis 14:18) is named after Shelah שָׁ֑לַח (Genesis 10:24)


Not at all. While there are a few examples of nouns ending in mem derived from roots ending in heh, there are none from roots ending in chet.

sethmknorr wrote:In both cases, it appears to me that both names are pretty similar.

I realize it is hard to be dogmatic on this, but would it be plausible?

Interested to hear everyone's thoughts.

Thanks,

Seth Knorr


You need to be careful there. Just because words sound similar, doesn’t mean that they are related. Even homographs (words with the same spelling) can come from different roots.

Karl W. Randolph.

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SteveMiller
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Re: Names of Places

Postby SteveMiller » Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:59 am

Hi Seth,
Welcome back to b-hebrew!

Kenites are distinct from Canaanites in Gen 15:18-21 & Judg 1:16-17.
They are referred to as ‎ קָ֑יִן, the same name as Cain, in Num 24:22 & Judges 4:11, but as you said, it is not possible that they are descendants of Cain.
Interestingly, Hobab, Moses' brother in law, is called a Kenite. (Judg 4:11)
The Kenites were friends of Israel (Judg 4:17-22;5:24-27; 1Sam 15:6).
Today's Druze consider themselves the descendants of Jethro, the father of Hobab.
And the Druze are great friends of Israel to this day. They serve with distinction is Israel's army.
Israel is today protecting the Druze villages in Syria from the terrorists who want to wipe them out.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

sethmknorr
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Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:37 pm

Re: Names of Places

Postby sethmknorr » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:01 pm

Thanks for all your responses.

Karl in regards to your responses:

kwrandolph wrote:Not likely, seeing as only one of his sons had descendants that survived the flood. It’s more likely that there was another person after the flood whose name was קין whose descendants were named after him.


I am surprised at how dogmatic your response was here. One thing I learned from studying ancient languages is that just because something is rare doesn't mean it is impossible. When it comes to cities, I think in the majority of times, the roots are best guesses, or unknown.

Isn't the whole idea of the root, based on how the word begins not how it ends?

I am curious as to how many roots your are referring to? Are you referring to places or just all roots in general? And is your research confined to the Bible, or a large range of ancient Hebrew writings?

Are you saying grammatically this isn't possible, or just based on your statistics?

kwrandolph wrote:You need to be careful there. Just because words sound similar, doesn’t mean that they are related. Even homographs (words with the same spelling) can come from different roots.


I realize that not all words that look or sound the same, are because they are a root of the other word. This goes without saying. However, from what I can see, especially from Numbers 26, this can be a very good indicator.

The intention of my post was not to have a cut and dry answer that yes it's a 100% the answer. I realize that is not possible. I was looking for strong evidence for/against that would be known in regards to the roots of Kenite and Salem.

Thanks again for your time.

Seth Knorr

kwrandolph
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Re: Names of Places

Postby kwrandolph » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:21 am

sethmknorr wrote:Thanks for all your responses.

Karl in regards to your responses:

kwrandolph wrote:Not likely, seeing as only one of his sons had descendants that survived the flood. It’s more likely that there was another person after the flood whose name was קין whose descendants were named after him.


I am surprised at how dogmatic your response was here. One thing I learned from studying ancient languages is that just because something is rare doesn't mean it is impossible. When it comes to cities, I think in the majority of times, the roots are best guesses, or unknown.


Is the Bible an accurate record of history? If so, then all the descendants of Cain, the son of Adam, died out during the flood as recorded in Genesis. I happen to agree that while the Bible is not a history book, where it mentions historical events, it’s accurate.

sethmknorr wrote:Isn't the whole idea of the root, based on how the word begins not how it ends?


Not in Biblical Hebrew. The whole root, not just the beginning, needs to be considered.

sethmknorr wrote:I am curious as to how many roots your are referring to? Are you referring to places or just all roots in general? And is your research confined to the Bible, or a large range of ancient Hebrew writings?


I limit myself to the Bible.

Already first century Hebrew had been so influenced by other languages that even its grammar differed from Biblical Hebrew. The same is true of many vocabulary words. Further, there’s evidence that much of Biblical Hebrew had been forgotten.

As far as place names are concerned, not all of them are Hebrew. The Bible doesn’t contain the full range of ancient Biblical language usage, so some of the place names may be from roots that have been forgotten.

sethmknorr wrote:The intention of my post was not to have a cut and dry answer that yes it's a 100% the answer. I realize that is not possible. I was looking for strong evidence for/against that would be known in regards to the roots of Kenite and Salem.


While there are many things that are fuzzy, there are others that are 100% cut and dried. Were the Kenites descended from Cain, the first son of Adam and Eve? Ancestry was traced only from father to son, and all the descendants of Cain were killed in the flood, therefore that is a 100% answer.

Was there another person named Cain who was the ancestor of the Kenites? Possibly. Because there’s no written record that has survived, we can neither say “Yes” nor “No” to that question.

sethmknorr wrote:Seth Knorr


Karl W. Randolph.


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