Is this analysis of Isaiah 9:6 a legitimate one?

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tian777
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Re: Is this analysis of Isaiah 9:6 a legitimate one?

Postby tian777 » Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:42 am

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers is quoted in https://biblehub.com/isaiah/9-6.htm as follows:
It is noticeable that that which follows is given not as many names, but one. Consisting as it does of eight words, of which the last six obviously fall into three couplets, it is probable that the first two should also be taken together, and that we have four elements of the compound name: (1) Wonderful-Counsellor, (2) God-the-Mighty-One, (3) Father of Eternity, (4) Prince of Peace.
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Re: Is this analysis of Isaiah 9:6 a legitimate one?

Postby SteveMiller » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:54 pm

Ruminator wrote:This site (http://dssenglishbible.com/isaiah%209.htm) for the DSS has:

DSS Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born. To us a son is given; and the government will be on his shoulders. His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.


However, when I look at the source there doesn't seem to be a source in the scrolls so I don't know where that quote is coming from. Masoretic?

Ruminator, The site you have is just a translation of the DSS.
Excluding extra waw's used as vowels, the DSS is the same as MT except for one word.
MT has וַיִּקְרָ֨א "and they called". (3ms as indefinite pronoun)
DSS has וקרא "and they will call". (3ms as indefinite pronoun)
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S_Walch
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Re: Is this analysis of Isaiah 9:6 a legitimate one?

Postby S_Walch » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:26 am

The Great Isaiah scroll also has שר השלום / "Prince of the Peace".

Can find transcriptions of the DSS over at https://archive.org/details/TheBiblicalQumranScrolls

Page 364 is where you want to be looking.
Ste Walch

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Re: Is this analysis of Isaiah 9:6 a legitimate one?

Postby SteveMiller » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:03 am

Ste,
thanks for the correction on DSS.

Ruminator,
Ruminator wrote:In the absence of an explicit subject in this context wouldn't we assume a "divine passive" of sorts, that it is implied that God named him?

No. If God named him that, then it would say God called his name Wonder, Counselor, etc.

Whether you take it as active "and they shall call his name ...." with the 3ms indefinite pronoun
or passive, "and his name shall be called ... "
the meaning is the same:
It is many unspecified people who will call his name Wonder, Counselor, ...
That means that "Wonder, Counselor, ..." is not his actual name, but that is what many people know him to be.

Isa 7:14 in DSS parallels this verse.
Isa 7:14 MT & LXX "and you shall call his name Immanuel".
Isa 7:14 DSS "and they shall call his name Immanuel" 3ms indefinite pronoun
Matthew 1:23 "and they shall call his name Immanuel, which is, being interpreted, 'God with us'"
MT and LXX do not make sense because Ahaz did not call any son's name Immanuel. Because it doesn't make sense, translators translate it as "she shall call his name", but it says "you".
The meaning is that many unspecified people will know him to be God with us.
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Steve Miller
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Re: Is this analysis of Isaiah 9:6 a legitimate one?

Postby SteveMiller » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:35 am

tian777 wrote:Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers is quoted in https://biblehub.com/isaiah/9-6.htm as follows:
It is noticeable that that which follows is given not as many names, but one. Consisting as it does of eight words, of which the last six obviously fall into three couplets, it is probable that the first two should also be taken together, and that we have four elements of the compound name: (1) Wonderful-Counsellor, (2) God-the-Mighty-One, (3) Father of Eternity, (4) Prince of Peace.


Just because the final 3 names are 2-word pairs does not mean that the 1st name must be a 2-word pair also. The 1st in a group can be special.

Pele is 1st because it is salient. The 1st characteristic of this promised son is that he is beyond human comprehension. It doesn’t do justice to pele to make it a modifier of "counselor," as in "counselor beyond human comprehension," or "wonderful counselor". Pele stood alone in Jud 13:18.

Also, "Counselor" is important enough to stand alone. Jesus is our Counselor. He speaks to us to give us counsel. This is a great NT blessing. This is the annointing in 1John 2:27.

Abiyud, "Father of eternity" is 1 word in MT, but 2 words in DSS. Yet Immanuel is 1 word in DSS, {#Isa 7:14 8:8,10 } but 2 words in MT, making it ambiguous in MT whether "Immanuel" or "God is with us" is meant in 8:10.
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Re: Is this analysis of Isaiah 9:6 a legitimate one?

Postby tian777 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:42 am

Thank you Steve. Much appreciated.
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Re: Is this analysis of Isaiah 9:6 a legitimate one?

Postby SteveMiller » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:34 am

You're welcome, Tian. You may be able to answer my question below.

All,
I have another question on this subject.
E. W. Hengstenberg, in Christology of the OT, mentions, as an aside, that to make the names "Wonder","Counselor", etc. the subject of the verb "called" is in opposition to the way this verse is accented.
‎ WTT Isaiah 9 :5
:כִּי־יֶ֣לֶד יֻלַּד־לָ֗נוּ בֵּ֚ן נִתַּן־לָ֔נוּ וַתְּהִ֥י הַמִּשְׂרָ֖ה עַל־שִׁכְמ֑וֹ וַיִּקְרָ֙א שְׁמ֜וֹ פֶּ֠לֶא יוֹעֵץ֙ אֵ֣ל גִּבּ֔וֹר אֲבִיעַ֖ד שַׂר־שָׁלֽוֹם

Can anyone explain how the accents indicate that?
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Steve Miller
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Re: Is this analysis of Isaiah 9:6 a legitimate one?

Postby Kirk Lowery » Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:25 am

The verb and object are united by a conjunctive accent and separated from the rest of the clause by a disjunctive accent:

‎וַיִּקְרָ֙א שְׁמ֜וֹ

I don't quite understand what Hengstenberg's logic is. But that may be my ignorance of the function of the accents here.

On linguistic grounds, I would argue that the list of names is the second accusative of the verb ‎קרא, similar to Gen 25:25:

‎וַיִּקְרְא֥וּ שְׁמ֖וֹ עֵשָֽׂו ...and they called his name Esau.

Cf. Waltke&O'Connor, §10.2.3c22.

The NET Bible translator's note says this:
"There is great debate over the syntactical structure of the verse. No subject is indicated for the verb "he called." If all the titles that follow are ones given to the king, then the subject of the verb must be indefinite, "one calls." However, some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, "and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, 'Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.'"

Aside from the anomaly of the identity of the subject, taken as a whole, I can't see the list of names as being the subject of the verb. The context only makes sense if these are the titles of the "son".

And, by the way, please accept my wishes for a happy, healthy and prosperous New Year!

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Re: Is this analysis of Isaiah 9:6 a legitimate one?

Postby SteveMiller » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:26 am

Thanks Kirk!
Or maybe I misunderstood Hengstenberg.
Here is his exact quote:
"The Jewish interpreters, despairing of being able, with any appearance of truth, to apply the following attributes to Hezekiah, insist that, with the exception of the last, they denote Him who calls, not Him who is called: the Wonderful, &c., called him Prince of peace. Altogether apart from the consideration that this is in opposition to the accents, the mentioning of so many names of Jehovah is here quite unsuitable; and, in all other passages, the noun put after קרא שמו designates always him who is called." - Christology of the Old Testament Vol II p. 86


A happy and healthy new year to all of you.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
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Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

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Re: Is this analysis of Isaiah 9:6 a legitimate one?

Postby Kirk Lowery » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:32 am

The quote is helpful. The issue with the Jewish interpreters, according to Hengstenberg, is changing the normal syntax/semantics of the verb. He ends up with the same conclusion I had. And, note carefully, he avoids the question of who the subject actually is! We can speculate that the verb should have been nifal, etc., but that's all we have. Fortunately, the passage as a whole is clear.
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