Isa 9:3(4) DSS

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SteveMiller
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Isa 9:3(4) DSS

Postby SteveMiller » Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:48 pm

Dear friends,
I've included the verses before and after 9:3(4) for context.

WTT Isaiah 9:2 הִרְבִּ֣יתָ הַגּ֔וֹי (לֹא) [ל֖וֹ] הִגְדַּ֣לְתָּ הַשִּׂמְחָ֑ה שָׂמְח֤וּ לְפָנֶ֙יךָ֙ כְּשִׂמְחַ֣ת בַּקָּצִ֔יר כַּאֲשֶׁ֥ר יָגִ֖ילוּ בְּחַלְּקָ֥ם שָׁלָֽל׃
DSS 1QIsaA_____הרביתה הגוי לוא הגדלתה השמחה שמחו לפניך כשמחת בקציר כאשר יגילו בחלקם שלל
Leupold: Thou wilt multiply the nation; for it thou wilt increase joy. They will rejoice before thee as men rejoice over a harvest, as men exult when they divide the spoil.
DSS Bible: You have expanded the nation, you have increased its joy. They rejoice in your presence, as with the joy at harvest, as people cheer when they divide spoil.
LXE Isaiah 9:3 The multitude of the people which thou hast brought down in thy joy, they shall even rejoice before thee as they that rejoice in harvest, and as they that divide the spoil.

‎WTT Isaiah 9:3כִּ֣י׀ אֶת־עֹ֣ל סֻבֳּל֗וֹ וְאֵת֙ מַטֵּ֣ה שִׁכְמ֔וֹ שֵׁ֖בֶט הַנֹּגֵ֣שׂ בּ֑וֹ הַחִתֹּ֖תָ כְּי֥וֹם מִדְיָֽן׃
DSS 1QIsaA:__כי את עול סבלו ואת מטה שכמו שבט הנוגש בו והחתת כיום מדים
DSS 1QIsaC: _____[ הח]ת֯ותי כ֯[יום]
Leupold Isa 9:4 (MT): For its burdensome yoke, the rod laid on its shoulder, the staff of the oppressor - all these you will break as in the day of Midian.
DSS Bible: __ _______For the yoke of their burden and the pole on their shoulder, the rod of their oppressors, and you have broken, as in the day of Midiam.
LXE Isaiah 9:4 Because the yoke that was laid upon them has been taken away, and the rod that was on their neck: for he has broken the rod of the exactors, as in the day of Madiam.

WTT Isaiah 9:4 כִּ֤י כָל־סְאוֹן֙ סֹאֵ֣ן בְּרַ֔עַשׁ וְשִׂמְלָ֖ה מְגוֹלָלָ֣ה בְדָמִ֑ים וְהָיְתָ֥ה לִשְׂרֵפָ֖ה מַאֲכֹ֥לֶת אֵֽשׁ׃
DSS 1QIsaA: ___כי כול סאון סאן ברעש ושמלה מגוללה בדמים והיתה לשרפה מאכלת אש
Leupold Isa 9:5 MT: For every boot of the warrior tramping in battle tumult and the blood-stained warcloak - this is destined to be burned - fuel for the fire.
DSS Bible: _______ For every boot tramping in the tumult and the garments rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for fire.
LXE Isaiah 9:5 For they shall compensate for every garment that has been acquired by deceit, and all raiment with <1> restitution; and they shall be willing, even if they were burnt with fire.[/size]

My question: Is the DSS for 9:3(4) bad Hebrew?
It has the "and" prefix on the only verb, thus separating the verb from its objects.
Is there any way the DSS verses could be translated so that the verb והחתת does not take אֶת־עֹ֣ל סֻבֳּל֗וֹ וְאֵת֙ מַטֵּ֣ה שִׁכְמ֔וֹ as its direct objects?

Another question. Do you think "and You have broken" is a good translation of והחתת?

Feel free to comment on anything about these verses, not just my 2 questions.

Thank you.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

S_Walch
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Re: Isa 9:3(4) DSS

Postby S_Walch » Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:41 pm

Could the prefixed ו not be understood to mean "also" rather than "and"?

For the yoke of their burden, and the pole on their shoulder, the rod of their oppressors also you have broken, as in the day of Midiam ?

If not, then I would consider it a scribal mistake of dittography, uncorrected in the manuscript.

As the scribe has put spaces both before and after this verse, then he hasn't understood the beginning before the verb as connected to anything prior, and what comes after the verb as connected to anything after Midiam.

Can see the verse @ http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah#9:4 on column 8, about half-way down.
Ste Walch

Saboi

Re: Isa 9:3(4) DSS

Postby Saboi » Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:59 pm

The prefixed ו is an augment indicating the past tense of the verb.

talmid56
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Re: Isa 9:3(4) DSS

Postby talmid56 » Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:22 am

Ste,
As the scribes of the DSS were native Hebrew speakers, we can rule out "bad Hebrew" as an option. (Yes, I know some believe that there were no native Hebrew speakers in Israel by this point. However, there is growing evidence that this isn't so.) The usage might be different than BH, but that doesn't make it wrong, Qumran Hebrew is still Hebrew, just as Mishnaic (Rabbinic) Hebrew is. Just a later development of it. Same as the Hebrew of Ben Sira and other Apocrypha/Pseudepigra. They differ some from BH, but they are still in Hebrew.
Dewayne Dulaney
דואיין דוליני

Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/

כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
--(E 84:11) 84:12 תהלים

kwrandolph
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Re: Isa 9:3(4) DSS

Postby kwrandolph » Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:36 pm

We can rule out that Jews during the Second Temple Period were native speakers of Hebrew. Even the post-Babylonian Exile books in Tanakh give indications that native speaking of Hebrew had ceased. Rather what we have is similar to medieval monks who continued speaking Latin as a second, learned language.

As for החתת in the verse, what form is it? Is it a verb, or a noun, or a participle used as a noun? Which root does it come from? These are questions we need to answer in order to understand this verse. Only afterwards can we ask the question that Steve posts above.

The LXX tried to translate it as a verb.

Right now I’m leaning towards it being a noun as a final element of a list. If that is the case, then the waw preceding the word in question is good Hebrew, fitting in the pattern of the verse. But I’m willing to listen to good arguments to the contrary and maybe change my mind.

Karl W. Randolph.

S_Walch
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Re: Isa 9:3(4) DSS

Postby S_Walch » Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:33 pm

kwrandolph wrote:Right now I’m leaning towards it being a noun as a final element of a list. If that is the case, then the waw preceding the word in question is good Hebrew, fitting in the pattern of the verse. But I’m willing to listen to good arguments to the contrary and maybe change my mind.

The question would then be Karl: which word in the verse is the necessary verb? If we took והחתת as being a noun, then I can't see any other word in the verse that could rightly function as a verb. Whilst the verb for "to be" could then be argued as implied (as is usually the case), I would have a hard time fitting it between any of the nouns that are in the list to make the verse have any sort of sense. :)

The LXX (well, Old Greek) also either envisages a different Hebrew text to that seen in both Masoretic and DSS, or the translator has supplied an extra verb near the beginning (plus an extra word, highlighted in bold):

διότι ἀφῄρηται ὁ ζυγὸς ὁ ἐπʼ αὐτῶν κείμενος, καὶ ἡ ῥάβδος ἡ ἐπὶ τοῦ τραχήλου αὐτῶν· τὴν γὰρ ῥάβδον τῶν ἀπαιτούντων διεσκέδασεν ὡς τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῇ ἐπὶ Μαδιάμ
because has been taken away the yoke laid upon them, and the rod around their neck. For the rod of those demanding payment he has shattered, as in the day in the time of Midiam

So either the translator supplied the extra verb, or it was present in the Hebrew Vorlage that they were using, which is now subsequently missing from the Great Isaiah Scroll and the Masoretic.

I personally just put this down as an error of dittography in the Great Isaiah Scroll.

How would you read the Great Isaiah Scroll Hebrew here?
Ste Walch

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SteveMiller
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Re: Isa 9:3(4) DSS

Postby SteveMiller » Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:35 pm

Ste,
Thanks very much for the DSS link. Wow, they have done a lot of great work on that site since I last saw it.
God bless the workers who did this and the donors.

When I zoom in on the word in question, the first letter looks like a yod rather than a waw.
There is a splotch under it, which could have cut off the neck of the waw, but the next letter, the hey, bleeds into the splotch.

But there is no such word as יהחתת.

It is also amazing to me that the verse breaks are there in the text.

Could the prefixed ו not be understood to mean "also" rather than "and"?

For the yoke of their burden, and the pole on their shoulder, the rod of their oppressors also you have broken, as in the day of Midiam ?


That is a good suggestion.
I did a search for "also" in DBY and got 600 some hits. Then I removed any verses that contained גמ or אף because I'm looking for waw translated as "also". That left only 142 verses. In these I don't see anything like where the verb follows a waw prefix and an object of the verb precedes the waw.

The LXX (well, Old Greek)

Is there some question about the LXX Isaiah not being the Septuagint translated by the Jews around 200 BC?
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

S_Walch
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Re: Isa 9:3(4) DSS

Postby S_Walch » Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:27 pm

SteveMiller wrote:When I zoom in on the word in question, the first letter looks like a yod rather than a waw.

If you look at the other examples of the yod in the manuscript, they look more like ^ than something akin to the more modern ו that the waw's in the manuscript represent.

Nevertheless, mistaking י for ו is done quite often.

It is also amazing to me that the verse breaks are there in the text.

If you look at the DSS manuscripts (of which practically all can be seen in colour or black & white photographs at https://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/explore-the-archive), you'll find that most actually do indicate end of sentences etc. with a larger break, with quite a few reflecting modern verse-numbering.

I found it fascinating when I first saw DSS manuscripts (rather than just transcriptions of such), for not only did they put spaces between words, but also did larger paragraph-type breaks.

I'm more used to early Greek manuscripts, which not only don't put spaces between words, but didn't always do more breaks between sentences or sense-units either.

That is a good suggestion.
I did a search for "also" in DBY and got 600 some hits. Then I removed any verses that contained גמ or אף because I'm looking for waw translated as "also". That left only 142 verses. In these I don't see anything like where the verb follows a waw prefix and an object of the verb precedes the waw.

I'll do a search for anything that could be representative of my suggestion. I was just throwing ideas out there.

Though personally, as I've mentioned, I'm going to put it down to uncorrected dittography.

Is there some question about the LXX Isaiah not being the Septuagint translated by the Jews around 200 BC?

Well there's some question about whether there was anything that could be classed as the "Septuagint" as a collection of like-minded translated manuscripts. "Old Greek" is now the preferred term for Greek manuscripts containing books of the Tanakh :)
Ste Walch

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SteveMiller
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Re: Isa 9:3(4) DSS

Postby SteveMiller » Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:00 pm

S_Walch wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:When I zoom in on the word in question, the first letter looks like a yod rather than a waw.

If you look at the other examples of the yod in the manuscript, they look more like ^ than something akin to the more modern ו that the waw's in the manuscript represent.

Nevertheless, mistaking י for ו is done quite often.

Thanks Ste. Yeah, on closer inspection, it should be a waw.
It's missing the forward edge of the ^.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

kwrandolph
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Re: Isa 9:3(4) DSS

Postby kwrandolph » Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:28 pm

החתת

For starters, we assume what most people over time have taken the word, namely as a verb. If it is a verb, what is its form?

First of all, we notice from its prefixed ה and lack of a medial י that it’s a Hophal verb. Possible verbs found in Tanakh that possibly have this form are:

‎חתה to rake together (fire, to keep it burning hot and from going out Is 30:14) rake away (from being a people Is 7:8)

‎חתת to terrify, make paralyzed from fear, though usually in passive Niphal to be paralyzed from fear

‎נחת to be in force, to be forceful 2S 22:25, Jl 4:11, Pr 17:10 as in imposition of force by a conquerer Jr 21:13, Ps 38:3

Possible but not likely to have this form is:

‎נחה to lead

Therefore, if this is a verb, which meaning best fits this context?

The specific form החתת is found once elsewhere, Jeremiah 49:37 where the meaning is “cause to be terrified”.

So what do you’all think?

Karl W. Randolph.


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