קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

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Isaac Fried
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Re: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Postby Isaac Fried » Thu May 16, 2019 11:55 am

Jason you say
"just as one should NOT think of each and every ו and י infix as הוא. This does nothing to get the meaning across, and it is actually false."

My question is why not (NOT), and why is it "actually false"?

I am reading your comments very carefully, but am sorry to say that I see little justification as to what you claim. If you want to prove me wrong you need to do it methodically and systematically. I invite you to convince me of my errors and fallacies, but it is not enough that you declare that "it is actually false", or that "my linguist friend of Tel Aviv University does not understand it". Hit it hard and strong with good logic and well construed arguments, until you demolish my היא - הוּא infixes theory.

And yes, I have published some years ago a book:
THE ANALYTIC AND
SYNTHETIC ETYMOLOGY
OF THE
HEBREW LANGUAGE
It is available on amazon
https://www.amazon.com/Analytic-Synthet ... 0972747508
for the symbolic price of $8, used for less.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

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Jason Hare
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Re: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Postby Jason Hare » Thu May 16, 2019 12:18 pm

Yes, as I stated above, I'm aware that you have a self-published book out there. It is not my responsibility to knock down the claims of idiosyncratic theorists. Your approach to Hebrew is nearly akin to how conspiracy theories approach reality. It is not the responsibility of those who do not buy what a conspiracy theorist is selling to demonstrate the falsehood of their way of thinking.

It is, however, troublesome when conspiracy theorists come to dominate an online community that is tangentially connected to the topic of the claimed conspiracy to the point that anyone who isn't part of the conspiracy mind simply stops participating in the online community.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel

talmid56
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Re: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Postby talmid56 » Thu May 16, 2019 3:54 pm

Jason Hare wrote:

Where are those here who relate to Hebrew as a real language?


Well said, Jason, including your remarks about the unhelpfulness of etymological speculations in actually learning Biblical Hebrew (or any other language). Well, I’m one of those who does relate to Hebrew as a real language (and I look forward to contributing to your new Hebrew Café site.). This is why I’m interested in methods for learning ancient languages, including Biblical Hebrew, that use interactive/communicative methods (comprehensible input). The fact that there are some difficulties in our path (uncertainties about ancient pronunciation, questions about how the BH verbal system works—e.g., the tense and aspect debate, etc., etc.) should not deter us from trying. While I am all for healthy debate and allowing room for differences in opinion, I agree that this forum should focus on things that actually respect Hebrew as Hebrew, and take into account modern linguistics (regardless of whether we agree on every point.) The reason why I haven't commented on Isaac's posts is, after reading a few, I decided reading more (and responding to them), would not be the best use of my time.

Isaac, I mean no offense to you, but your posts remind me a little of those speculations I’ve read by those who assign mystical values to the various letters of the Hebrew alphabet. I find them interesting but completely valueless in understanding and appreciating Hebrew as a language. They are unproven and unprovable, in my view, by any hard data—both those speculations about the aleph-bet and yours about Hebrew words and roots. In the same vein I find the posts by Saboi just as troublesome and unhelpful. While as a personal hobby I like to look at word histories, I prefer those that have some actual linguistic support, whether from finds such as inscriptions and literature, as well as linguistic theories that have been tried and tested by scholars. Not that scholars are always right, or that we cannot attempt to add to our knowledge unless we are “experts”. I don’t mean that. There are others here who have academic credentials that I lack. But besides the four formal BH courses I took, I have had some linguistic training elsewhere and have a working knowledge of eight languages. I have also taught languages. So I understand on both a practical level and a theoretical level how languages work.

Just my two shekels,
Dewayne Dulaney
Dewayne Dulaney
דואיין דוליני

כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
--(E 84:11) 84:12 תהלים

Isaac Fried
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Re: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Postby Isaac Fried » Thu May 16, 2019 4:50 pm

Talmid,

I fully understand that one may want to ignore arguments not to his taste or benefit, still I a puzzled by the following statements:
"Where are those here who relate to Hebrew as a real language?" Are there those who doubt the reality of Hebrew?
"linguistic theories that have been tried and tested by scholars." Could you please tell us more specifically how this is done, I may profit from it by trying and testing my own theories.
"So I understand on both a practical level and a theoretical level how languages work." This, I admit, is a remarkable achievement. I myself am still struggling with such understandings.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

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Kirk Lowery
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Subforum for teaching & learning Hebrew (pedagogy)?

Postby Kirk Lowery » Thu May 16, 2019 5:52 pm

Dewayne Dulaney wrote:Well, I’m one of those who does relate to Hebrew as a real language (and I look forward to contributing to your new Hebrew Café site.). This is why I’m interested in methods for learning ancient languages, including Biblical Hebrew, that use interactive/communicative methods (comprehensible input). The fact that there are some difficulties in our path (uncertainties about ancient pronunciation, questions about how the BH verbal system works—e.g., the tense and aspect debate, etc., etc.) should not deter us from trying


Jason Hare wrote: I wonder how we can make it a useful space for the promotion of understanding the Hebrew text.


Would it be helpful to add a subforum to focus on the pedagogy of learning Hebrew as a real language? I know, Jason, that you have established a website/forum for this purpose, but would it help with discussion, do you think?

Now that I think about it, we could also add subforums similar to what B-Greek does, e.g., "What does this text mean?", or even one for grammar (morphology, syntax, etc.) questions.

This would be, from an administrative point of view, easy to do. But I'd like some member feedback before I go to the trouble.

Blessings,
Kirk
Kirk E. Lowery, PhD
B-Hebrew Site Administrator & Moderator
blog: https://blogs.emdros.org/eh

talmid56
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Re: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Postby talmid56 » Thu May 16, 2019 6:32 pm

Yes, Kirk, I think these types of subforums would be very useful.
Dewayne Dulaney
דואיין דוליני

כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
--(E 84:11) 84:12 תהלים

Schubert
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Re: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Postby Schubert » Thu May 16, 2019 8:12 pm

Kirk, I've sent you a pm about the issue you raised.
John McKinnon

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Jason Hare
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Re: Subforum for teaching & learning Hebrew (pedagogy)?

Postby Jason Hare » Fri May 17, 2019 1:45 am

Kirk Lowery wrote:Would it be helpful to add a subforum to focus on the pedagogy of learning Hebrew as a real language? I know, Jason, that you have established a website/forum for this purpose, but would it help with discussion, do you think?


One real tangible difference is that my own forum is devoted most directly (and intentionally) at modern Hebrew, while this forum focuses on biblical Hebrew. It's certainly worthwhile (in my opinion) to treat the biblical language in the way that Randall Buth has done extensively with Koiné Greek (and, to a lesser extent, with biblical Hebrew). That is, we might use texts pulled from the Bible as examples of regular syntax for the purpose of communicative Hebrew, perhaps employing what is considered antiquated style among speakers of the modern language.

Kirk Lowery wrote:Now that I think about it, we could also add subforums similar to what B-Greek does, e.g., "What does this text mean?", or even one for grammar (morphology, syntax, etc.) questions.


Yes, a clear and resounding yes from me. A subforum where etymology may hold sway would be nice. It would allow a diverse voice of Hebrew origins while allowing the wider forum to relate more directly to issues of acquisition and pedagogy.

Kirk Lowery wrote:This would be, from an administrative point of view, easy to do. But I'd like some member feedback before I go to the trouble.


You're right that this will take feedback from the qahal. What are people wanting to do with the forum? What are some wise steps we can take as an online community to further our objectives? What are our objectives as a group? It is a good idea to reevaluate previous answers to these questions every so often, and it seems that this is as good a time as any to start asking these questions again.

Maybe we should start a thread specifically dedicated to getting feedback and thinking through options.

בברכה
Jason
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel

R.J. Furuli
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Re: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Postby R.J. Furuli » Fri May 17, 2019 11:45 am

Jason Hare wrote,


When I check into this forum, I constantly struggle with understanding what we think our purpose is as an online group. I wonder how we can make it a useful space for the promotion of understanding the Hebrew text. Pet theories that fly in the face of linguistic theory and research do not promote a better understanding of the text. We should be looking for best practices, not doing what's going on here right now (and has been happening for a long time). Where are those here who relate to Hebrew as a real language?


Dear Jason,

Will a discussion of "prophetic perfect" help us better understand the Classical Hebrew as a real language? What is your opinion regarding "prophetic perfect?


Best regards,


Rolf J. Furuli
Stavern
Norway

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Jason Hare
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Re: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Postby Jason Hare » Sat May 18, 2019 8:24 am

R.J. Furuli wrote:Will a discussion of "prophetic perfect" help us better understand the Classical Hebrew as a real language? What is your opinion regarding "prophetic perfect?


I imagine that a discussion of any feature of biblical Hebrew that can be exhibited in the text should be useful.

The book of Amos was written before the fall of Israel, we can assume (I believe), yet it uses perfect forms to describe Israel's fall:

Amos 5:2
נָֽפְלָה֙ לֹֽא־תוֹסִ֣יף ק֔וּם בְּתוּלַ֖ת יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל נִטְּשָׁ֥ה עַל־אַדְמָתָ֖הּ אֵ֥ין מְקִימָֽהּ׃

The prophetic perfect (perfectum propheticum) was mentioned by Waltke & O'Connor, Gesenius, David Kimḥi (דוד קמחי), and others, so it has support form a wide variety of grammarians and Hebrew commentators.

Why do I get the feeling that this question is a distraction from the point we're engaging, though?
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel


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