Genesis 18:29-30

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Kenneth Greifer
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Genesis 18:29-30

Postby Kenneth Greifer » Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:04 am

Genesis 18:29
And he spoke unto Him yet again, and said: ‘Peradventure there shall be forty found there.’ And He said: ‘I will not do it for the forty’s sake.’

Genesis 18:30
And he said: ‘Oh, let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak. Peradventure there shall thirty be found there.’ And He said: ‘I will not do it, if I find thirty there.’
(JPS 1917 from Bible Hub)

Genesis 18:29 - 30 בראשית
18:29וַיֹּ֨סֶף ע֜וֹד לְדַבֵּ֤ר אֵלָיו֙ וַיֹּאמַ֔ר אוּלַ֛י יִמָּצְא֥וּן שָׁ֖ם אַרְבָּעִ֑ים וַיֹּ֙אמֶר֙ לֹ֣א אֶֽעֱשֶׂ֔ה בַּעֲב֖וּר הָאַרְבָּעִֽים׃
18:30וַ֠יֹּאמֶר אַל־נָ֞א יִ֤חַר לַֽאדֹנָי֙ וַאֲדַבֵּ֔רָה אוּלַ֛י יִמָּצְא֥וּן שָׁ֖ם שְׁלֹשִׁ֑ים וַיֹּ֙אמֶר֙ לֹ֣א אֶֽעֱשֶׂ֔ה אִם־אֶמְצָ֥א שָׁ֖ם שְׁלֹשִֽׁים׃


Isaiah 37:26 ישעיה
37:26הֲלֽוֹא־שָׁמַ֤עְתָּ לְמֵֽרָחוֹק֙ אוֹתָ֣הּ עָשִׂ֔יתִי מִ֥ימֵי קֶ֖דֶם וִיצַרְתִּ֑יהָ עַתָּ֣ה הֲבֵאתִ֔יהָ וּתְהִ֗י לְהַשְׁא֛וֹת גַּלִּ֥ים נִצִּ֖ים עָרִ֥ים בְּצֻרֽוֹת׃

Isaiah 44:23 ישעיה
44:23רָנּ֨וּ שָׁמַ֜יִם כִּֽי־עָשָׂ֣ה יְהוָ֗ה הָרִ֙יעוּ֙ תַּחְתִּיּ֣וֹת אָ֔רֶץ פִּצְח֤וּ הָרִים֙ רִנָּ֔ה יַ֖עַר וְכָל־עֵ֣ץ בּ֑וֹ כִּֽי־גָאַ֤ל יְהוָה֙ יַֽעֲקֹ֔ב וּבְיִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל יִתְפָּאָֽר׃ פ

Psalms 52:11 תהלים
52:11אוֹדְךָ֣ לְ֭עוֹלָם כִּ֣י עָשִׂ֑יתָ וַאֲקַוֶּ֖ה שִׁמְךָ֥ כִֽי־ט֝֗וֹב נֶ֣גֶד חֲסִידֶֽיךָ׃

Malachi 2:12 מלאכי
2:12יַכְרֵ֨ת יְהוָ֜ה לָאִ֨ישׁ אֲשֶׁ֤ר יַעֲשֶׂ֙נָּה֙ עֵ֣ר וְעֹנֶ֔ה מֵאָהֳלֵ֖י יַֽעֲקֹ֑ב וּמַגִּ֣ישׁ מִנְחָ֔ה לַֽיהוָ֖ה צְבָאֽוֹת׃ פ

The quotes in Genesis 18:29-30 say "I will not do it", but "it" isn't there or is it after the verb עשה? Is the letter hay at the end of the word "it" or not?
I have looked at a lot of quotes like this and sometimes it says "it" with a feminine "it" (the letter hay) and sometimes nothing. It seems common for this verb, but is it common with other verbs too? For example, Isaiah 37:26 says "it", but Isaiah 44:23 doesn't, but maybe it does. I am not sure. Psalm 52:11 doesn't. Malachi 2:12 has a slightly different ending יַעֲשֶׂ֙נָּה֙.

Mitchell Powell
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Re: Genesis 18:29-30

Postby Mitchell Powell » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:52 pm

In Genesis 18:30, the he at the end of אֶעֱשֶׂה is just part of the verb, it's not a pronoun or anything. Likewise, in Isaiah 44:23, the he of עָשָׂה is also just part of the verb itself; it's not an additional suffix.

Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Genesis 18:29-30

Postby Kenneth Greifer » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:58 pm

I wasn't sure if the he at the end of the verb dropped and another he was added to the verb as a suffix.

Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Genesis 18:29-30

Postby Kenneth Greifer » Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:17 am

Psalms 22:32 תהלים
יָ֭בֹאוּ וְיַגִּ֣ידוּ צִדְקָת֑וֹ לְעַ֥ם נ֝וֹלָ֗ד כִּ֣י עָשָֽׂה׃

Does it literally say "because He did it (righteousness)" or "because He did"? Is it possible that the masoretic pointing is wrong?

ducky
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Re: Genesis 18:29-30

Postby ducky » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:56 am

There is no need to write "it".
the verb עשה is linked to the word צדקתו - and so it already has it as its object.

Think of it that the second part is based on two objects
יבאו ויגידו צדקתו לעם נולד
יבאו ויגידו - צדקתו - כי עשה (the word כי=that)

so it is like to say: I saw the house that he built (and I don't need to add "it").

*
In this case, since there is a space between the words, it could have used also "it" - it is a matter of style.

***
Adding a feminine suffix vowel to this form can be done, but this thing is kinda rare, and it doesn't seem to be the intention of the verse (since this is not the pattern in Psalms and in the whole Bible).
David Hunter

Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Genesis 18:29-30

Postby Kenneth Greifer » Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:40 am

David,

I thought "that" would be אשר and not כי in this quote, if it meant they will tell His righteousness that He has done. I thought it says they will tell His righteousness because He did (it).

Isaac Fried
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Re: Genesis 18:29-30

Postby Isaac Fried » Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:18 pm

Ps. 22:32(31)
יָבֹאוּ וְיַגִּידוּ צִדְקָתוֹ לְעַם נוֹלָד כִּי עָשָׂה
Seems to me that כִּי עָשָׂה refers לְעַם נוֹלָד and not to צִדְקָתוֹ. Otherwise, what is this עַם נוֹלָד?

Isaac Fried, Boston University

kwrandolph
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Re: Genesis 18:29-30

Postby kwrandolph » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:02 am

Kenneth Greifer wrote:The quotes in Genesis 18:29-30 say "I will not do it", but "it" isn't there or is it after the verb עשה? Is the letter hay at the end of the word "it" or not?


What you have run into is not a problem of Hebrew, rather that of translation. English has no exact equivalent for עשה. “Do” is the closest. But “do” in English requires a direct object. A direct object is optional for עשה. So the translation will include a direct object while that is not always found in Hebrew

Karl W. Randolph.

ducky
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Re: Genesis 18:29-30

Postby ducky » Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:17 pm

Hi Kenneth,

Indeed the word אשר is the usual word to describe the noun that comes before it. But the word כי which has a lot of meanings "slides" to that place too.
And there is a lot to write about that word and how it got a lot of meanings.

we can look at Hab. 2:18
מָה הוֹעִיל פֶּסֶל כִּי פְסָלוֹ יֹצְרוֹ

or Ez. 24:19
מָה אֵלֶּה לָּנוּ כִּי אַתָּה עֹשֶׂה

(even though in these two cases I can also think of another way)
*

The reason I don't read that verse you quoted as "because" is because it doesn't make a right sense to me.
The people would tell the wonders of God to the next generations because God made it?
This is the reason?
Why not telling the wonders of God because they are great, and that alone would give glory to his name.

***
Also, in the same matter, in Psalms 25:6 it says:
זְכֹר רַחֲמֶיךָ י״י וַחֲסָדֶיךָ כִּי מֵעוֹלָם הֵמָּה
A lot of translations translate that word כי as "for".
But it simply means "that"?
Just like if the word אשר was there.
This "that" comes to describe the grace of God.

Another example in the same chapter, verse 11:
לְמַעַן שִׁמְךָ י״י וְסָלַחְתָּ לַעֲוֺנִי כִּי רַב הוּא
Here, we can link the words רב הוא to the word שמך or to the word לעוני.
Most people link it to לעוני.
Anyway, also here, the word כי can be read as "that/which" (just like אשר) to describe the word לעוני.
Some gives it the definition of "for" ("because").
Some gives it the definition of "even though".

Anyway, you can see that when it comes after a noun, it can take the meaning of אשר to describe the noun.

*
In Ez. 18:21 the word כי comes in the meaning of "if" (or "if & when")
וְהָרָשָׁע כִּי יָשׁוּב מִכׇּל חַטֹּאתָו אֲשֶׁר עָשָׂה
Now we know that here, it means "if".
But if we read this word as "which"=אשר, does it really make a lot of difference?
(even though, the meaning here is really "if").

It shows how this word can move from side to side naturally in the mind, up to the point that in the late books, there are cases that replace the אשר with כי because it was so natural to them.
For example, the parallel verse in 1Kings 8:33 vs. 2Ch. 6:24
בְּהִנָּגֵף עַמְּךָ יִשְׂרָאֵל לִפְנֵי אוֹיֵב *אֲשֶׁר* יֶחֶטְאוּ לָךְ
וְאִם יִנָּגֵף עַמְּךָ יִשְׂרָאֵל לִפְנֵי אוֹיֵב *כִּי* יֶחֶטְאוּ לָךְ

****
Hi Isaac,
עם נולד comes in the sense of the next generation, like the next generation that is born and comes to replace the previous one is called a born people.
Maybe these term comes as part of a variety next to זרע and דור that in the previous verse.

And the verse is like:
יָבֹאוּ וְיַגִּידוּ לְעַם נוֹלָד צִדְקָתוֹ כִּי עָשָׂה
the first generations tells to their sons (the next genrations) the wonders that God did.
David Hunter

Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Genesis 18:29-30

Postby Kenneth Greifer » Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:45 pm

David,
What exactly is your translation of Psalm 22:32?
Psalm 22:32 could say "they will come and they will tell His righteousness, for a people is born because He did it" or "for a people is born that is doing it."


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