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Jeremiah 22:7 destroyers or ones caused to destroy
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2025 9:58 pm
by Kenneth Greifer
Jeremiah 22:7 has the word משחתים which is translated as "destroyers" and is considered to be hiphil present tense or present participle (whatever the difference is?), but I was wondering if it could be present participle hophal form that might mean "ones caused to destroy"? Usually, hiphil like this should have a letter yud added to it משחיתים. Is this common for that form of the hiphil form of the verb because I have seen other examples, but I don't know why it would be that way?
Kenneth Greifer
https://www.youtube.com/@kennethgreifer5123
Re: Jeremiah 22:7 destroyers or ones caused to destroy
Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2025 10:19 pm
by kwrandolph
First of all, that is not a Hiphil. It lacks the yod. It is a participle.
It is a noun, most likely based on a Hophal meaning, namely “those who cause to be destroyed”. This is a transitive meaning.
At least, that’s how I read it.
Re: Jeremiah 22:7 destroyers or ones caused to destroy
Posted: Mon May 25, 2026 9:45 pm
by Jason Hare
Kenneth Greifer wrote: Sun Aug 03, 2025 9:58 pm
Jeremiah 22:7 has the word משחתים which is translated as "destroyers" and is considered to be hiphil present tense or present participle (whatever the difference is?), but I was wondering if it could be present participle hophal form that might mean "ones caused to destroy"? Usually, hiphil like this should have a letter yud added to it משחיתים. Is this common for that form of the hiphil form of the verb because I have seen other examples, but I don't know why it would be that way?
Kenneth Greifer
https://www.youtube.com/@kennethgreifer5123
Necroposters unite!
It is not uncommon for words to appear in defective spelling, missing vowel letters. It is entirely possible for משחתים to be pointed and understood as מַשְׁחִתִים mašḥīṯîm for מַשְׁחִיתִים mašḥîṯîm. I would remove the causative sense from many hiphil verbs. The hiphil of this verb just means “to destroy,” not “to cause to destroy,” and the hophal means “destroyed.” Without context, the participle could be read as מֻשְׁחָתִים mušḥāṯîm or מׇשְׁחָתִים mošḥāṯîm, which takes on the special meaning of “corrupt” or “immoral.”
That said, here is the context of the word:
וְקִדַּשְׁתִּ֥י עָלֶ֛יךָ מַשְׁחִתִ֖ים אִ֣ישׁ וְכֵלָ֑יו וְכָֽרְתוּ֙ מִבְחַ֣ר אֲרָזֶ֔יךָ וְהִפִּ֖ילוּ עַל־הָאֵֽשׁ׃
The presence of וכרתו and והפילו על־האש makes your interpretation unlikely, since they are cutting down trees and throwing them on the fire... they are bringing destruction.
You should not be surprised to find defective spellings. They happen a lot.
Re: Jeremiah 22:7 destroyers or ones caused to destroy
Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2026 9:26 pm
by Kenneth Greifer
Jason Hare wrote: Mon May 25, 2026 9:45 pm
Kenneth Greifer wrote: Sun Aug 03, 2025 9:58 pm
Jeremiah 22:7 has the word משחתים which is translated as "destroyers" and is considered to be hiphil present tense or present participle (whatever the difference is?), but I was wondering if it could be present participle hophal form that might mean "ones caused to destroy"? Usually, hiphil like this should have a letter yud added to it משחיתים. Is this common for that form of the hiphil form of the verb because I have seen other examples, but I don't know why it would be that way?
Kenneth Greifer
https://www.youtube.com/@kennethgreifer5123
Necroposters unite!
It is not uncommon for words to appear in defective spelling, missing vowel letters. It is entirely possible for משחתים to be pointed and understood as מַשְׁחִתִים mašḥīṯîm for מַשְׁחִיתִים mašḥîṯîm. I would remove the causative sense from many hiphil verbs. The hiphil of this verb just means “to destroy,” not “to cause to destroy,” and the hophal means “destroyed.” Without context, the participle could be read as מֻשְׁחָתִים mušḥāṯîm or מׇשְׁחָתִים mošḥāṯîm, which takes on the special meaning of “corrupt” or “immoral.”
That said, here is the context of the word:
וְקִדַּשְׁתִּ֥י עָלֶ֛יךָ מַשְׁחִתִ֖ים אִ֣ישׁ וְכֵלָ֑יו וְכָֽרְתוּ֙ מִבְחַ֣ר אֲרָזֶ֔יךָ וְהִפִּ֖ילוּ עַל־הָאֵֽשׁ׃
The presence of וכרתו and והפילו על־האש makes your interpretation unlikely, since they are cutting down trees and throwing them on the fire... they are bringing destruction.
You should not be surprised to find defective spellings. They happen a lot.
Hello, Jason, I just happen to check this forum for fun once in a while, and I see some responses. Thanks for answering.
Re: Jeremiah 22:7 destroyers or ones caused to destroy
Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2026 7:48 am
by Kenneth Greifer
kwrandolph wrote: Tue Sep 02, 2025 10:19 pm
First of all, that is not a Hiphil. It lacks the yod. It is a participle.
It is a noun, most likely based on a Hophal meaning, namely “those who cause to be destroyed”. This is a transitive meaning.
At least, that’s how I read it.
Thanks for answering me. I have not really been paying attention to B-Hebrew for a long time. Once in a while, I look to see what is going on here. I stopped asking questions a while ago because I bought some books or I just look up things. I still work on my goal of trying to fix the Hebrew Bible with my own textual criticism. The people here were not interested in my ideas or just thought I was wrong, so I quit here.