Where is the dot?

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ducky
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Re: Where is the dot?

Postby ducky » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:21 am

there is no doubling after a mobile Sheva.
It is not possible to do that

the Dagesh became a lene dagesh, which the lene dagesh has no real essence, and it is just an allophone that changes the sound of the letter.

So in this case, the lene Dagesh just kept the reading of the letter T as "T".
(instead of the "TH").
David Hunter

Isaac Fried
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Re: Where is the dot?

Postby Isaac Fried » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:26 pm

ducky wrote
there is no doubling after a mobile Sheva.

David, I have asked here a simple question, but have received no discernible answer. I am greatly interested in your answer to this question: do you (you!) read (pronounce) the word שְׁתַּיִם with a dagesh in the letter תַּ differently than the word שְׁתַיִם without a dagesh in the letter תַ?

Isaac Fried, Boston University

ducky
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Re: Where is the dot?

Postby ducky » Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:36 am

Hello Isaac

You need to be more specific when you say Dagesh.

Sephardi and modern doesn't differ the T with Lene dagesh and the T without it.
So when I talk I pronounce the letter ת the same whether it is with Dagesh or not.

When I pray or read a text according to the Yemenite dialect, then I do differ these two.
and I read the T with Lene Dagesh as T
and the T without is as "TH"

And It is closed to how you say it (T vs. S)
David Hunter

Isaac Fried
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Re: Where is the dot?

Postby Isaac Fried » Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:13 pm

ducky wrote
the Dagesh became a lene dagesh, which the lene dagesh has no real essence, and it is just an allophone that changes the sound of the letter.

Yes, but inadvertently. As soon as we see a dot in the bosom of the Hebrew letter בּ, the dot having been placed there for whatever reason, we reflexively read it as an English B. Otherwise, we read it as an English V. In other words, the B - V readings in Hebrew today is as good as random.
For example, it is כֶּרֶם KEREM, 'vineyard, a plantation of grapevines', but as we have read it today in Deut. 23:25, the addition of a bet turns it, as I myself have heard it with my own ears from an experienced public reader בעל קוֹרא, into a practically בְּחֶרֶם with an incongruous ח (as no audible distinction is (luckily) made today between a soft כ and a ח) and a resulting absurdly sounding חֶרֶם XEREM, for the original, stand-alone, כֶּרֶם KEREM. Of course, no one have said anything as they were all with their heads into the written text of the חוּמש and seeing there a כ.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

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Jason Hare
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Re: Where is the dot?

Postby Jason Hare » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:02 am

Assimilation of נ represented by dagesh (doubling of consonant):
נ.פ.ל > *יִנְפֹּל > *יִפְּפֹּל > יִפֹּל
נ.ס.ע > *יִנְסַע > *יִסְסַע > יִסַּע
נ.ג.ע > *הִנְגִּיעַ > *הִגְּגִּיעַ > הִגִּיעַ
כ.נ.ס > נִכְנַס > *יִנְכָּנֵס > *יִכְּכָּנֵס > יִכָּנֵס
נ.ת.ן > *נָתַ֫נְתִּי > *נָתַ֫תְּתִּי > נָתַ֫תִּי

There are actually people in Israel (generally living in the north) who say נָתַ֫נְתִּי instead of נָתַ֫תִּי.

Isaac, do you really think that the dagesh serves no purpose? Seriously?
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel

ducky
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Re: Where is the dot?

Postby ducky » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:06 am

Hello Isaac and Jason

You are talking about two different types of Dagesh.
Jason talks about Forte
Isaac talks about Lene.

(by the way, נתנתי is very rare speech, and if it happens, it happens only by little kids. But it is very rare also wit kids. I actually didn't hear it in years).

Isaac, you're talking about Lene Dagesh.
It is important to say בכרם as Bekherem.
If one doesn't distinguish the כ from the ח - it doesn't affect the word.

more than that, We are in Month Elul.
and one of the poetry-prayer of this time is:
יה שמע אביוניך המחלים פניך
and those who don't distinguish between the כ and ח pronounce the word המחלים as המכלים
and therefore it changes the meaning from positive to negative (as an insult to God).

But people pronounce the language as they pronounce it - and it is what it is.
and it is understood clearly even that way - because it is the common pronunciation.

Another example can be from Arabic
Kalb = Dog (which can be also used as a rough insult)
Qalb = Heart.

So if someone wants to say to his lover "You are my heart"
but doesn't pronounce the Q in its emphatic way, He actually says: "You are my dog" which is a big insult.
David Hunter

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Jason Hare
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Re: Where is the dot?

Postby Jason Hare » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:18 am

ducky wrote:(by the way, נתנתי is very rare speech, and if it happens, it happens only by little kids. But it is very rare also wit kids. I actually didn't hear it in years).

I heard it about three weeks ago from a guest who came to check in at the hotel where I work. I was shocked. He was from some village up north, coming to stay the weekend in Tel Aviv... and, yes, he said נתנתי. No mistaking it.

I know that we're talking about different linguistic phenomena. Isaac doesn't think that dagesh has a real function at all, whether it is forte or lene.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel

ducky
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Re: Where is the dot?

Postby ducky » Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:37 am

Hello Jason,

It is strange that you heard that because I know it is a kids-talk. But anyway, I guess there are some that are still kids in that matter.
David Hunter

Isaac Fried
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Re: Where is the dot?

Postby Isaac Fried » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:31 am

Jason writes
Assimilation of נ represented by dagesh (doubling of consonant):

Says I:
1. The dot in the letter פּ of יִפֹּל is not to tell us about the "Assimilation" of the נ (this is known to me without the benefit of a dagesh) but because of the qireq under the יִ. The inner dot is, in my opinion, an ancient, pre-niqud, marking to hint at certain vowels.
2. There is no "doubling" of consonants in Hebrew, the same way there is no נָתַ֫נְתִּי in Hebrew (except for people speaking "correct" Hebrew).
Isaac, do you really think that the dagesh serves no purpose? Seriously?

3. Yes! The introduction of the niqud makes the inner dot (the "dagesh") superfluous. Try it. Delete all inner dots (except in בכפ) and you will see that you don't miss not one of them.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

ducky
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Re: Where is the dot?

Postby ducky » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:53 am

I actually agree with Isaac on some level.
But What Isaac does is using his method of "restoring" the Hebrew to its ancient place (maybe before it was even written).

Because I also think that when the Imperefcet was used with this root (and others), it was based only on the two letters of פל. And therefore, Y+PL.

Only later, when the roots were expanded and the qtl form was written as נפל, then it was seen (and spoken) as Y+NPL.
But we can even say that this view is very late, and even at the time of the qtl form, the imperfect kept its form of Y+PL.

And only later, when the Hebrew evolved its pattern in a more organized way, it was seen (and was spoken) as Y+NPL.
David Hunter


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