Genesis 1.1

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kwrandolph
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Re: Genesis 1.1

Postby kwrandolph » Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:06 am

SteveMiller wrote:Karl,
Could you share your list of verses that show that God is triune.
I would like to keep them for reference.
thanks.


Sorry, Steve, but I don’t have a list. I hadn’t thought of making a list.

There aren’t many passages that list all three of the persons of the Trinity in one place.

The most famous passage that I know of is in Matthew 28:18–20.

In Tanakh we have besides the blessing in Numbers 6:24–26 the statement in Isaiah 48:12–16 where the speaker clearly identifies himself as God, yet God is sending him and his Spirit.

In other passages the individual members of the triune God are mentioned. We have the מלאך אלהים or more often מלאך יהוה who is God’s messenger, yet God himself, e.g. Numbers 22, 2 Kings 1:3, Malachi 3:1 and other verses. God’s Spirit is mentioned in Genesis 1:2, Isaiah 63:10–11, Psalm 51:13 (verse 11 in English) and other verses.

While I haven’t made a list, the above paragraph indicates how I would start one. Has anyone else made such a list?

Karl W. Randolph.

Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Genesis 1.1

Postby Kenneth Greifer » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:16 am

Karl,

In Numbers 6:24-26, G-d is telling the priests a prayer to say to the people, so it just sounds like He is talking about someone else.
In Isaiah 48:12-16, I think G-d talks about Himself and then Isaiah says G-d is sending him and G-d's spirit which is usually on prophets.
The angel of G-d is unusual because I think it is really just an angel that has G-d's name (presence) in it like it says Exodus 23:20-22 and in Isaiah 63:9-10. I think that G-d speaks through it like a telephone or puppet. You would hear the angel's voice, but really G-d could talk through it. Exodus 23:20-22 says listen to it's voice and do what G-d speaks because the angel speaks, but G-d is actually talking.
Isaiah 63:10 mentions that they grieved G-d's spirit, but there are many quotes that mention different people's spirits being grieved or bitter because that was one way of describing emotions. Their spirit is not a separate being. For example, see Genesis 41:8.
Kenneth Greifer

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SteveMiller
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Re: Genesis 1.1

Postby SteveMiller » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:22 pm

Hi Kenneth,
I think your arguments are sound for those verses.
Here are 5 verses that I think are stronger in saying that God is plural:
Gen 1:26 Let Us make man in Our image after our likeness
Gen 3:22 Man is become as one of Us
Isa 6:8 who will go for Us
Isa 9:6 they shall call His name ... the mighty God, the Father of eternity
Ps 45:6-7 O God Your throne is forever and ever ... Therefore God, Your God has anointed You with the oil of exultant joy
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Genesis 1.1

Postby Kenneth Greifer » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:33 pm

Steve,

I can't answer you right now, but in case I can in the near future, I need to know when you think the Bible says the angels were created, if it actually tells that someplace. Each quote you pointed out is complicated in different ways, and I know that I would have to deal with many details for each one, and I can't do that right now, but I am interested in what you think about the creation of the angels and when it happened because that is one of many possible details. Believe me, I have many unusual ideas about each of these quotes, but I have to deal with a lot of other things right now, so I might not be able to answer you.
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Re: Genesis 1.1

Postby SteveMiller » Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:50 am

Hi Kenneth,
I think God created the angels in Gen 1:1, included in the statement, In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
More specifically, God created them before He created the earth because they rejoiced when He laid the earth's foundations in Job 38:4-7.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

kwrandolph
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Re: Genesis 1.1

Postby kwrandolph » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:45 am

Dear Kenneth Greifer:

Your arguments don’t hold water. I disagree with Steve here.

Kenneth Greifer wrote:In Numbers 6:24-26, G-d is telling the priests a prayer to say to the people, so it just sounds like He is talking about someone else.


It is יהוה who gave the command to the priests to bless the people, that יהוה is the one who is actually doing the actions not the priests themselves. In each of the actions, יהוה does the action, the priests merely speak on his behalf, which is why יהוה is in the third person. As I mentioned before, each of the actions corresponds to the three persons of the trinity.

Kenneth Greifer wrote:In Isaiah 48:12-16, I think G-d talks about Himself and then Isaiah says G-d is sending him and G-d's spirit which is usually on prophets.


Here you are taking it out of context. The passage is a unit with the same speaker throughout.

Kenneth Greifer wrote:The angel of G-d is unusual because I think it is really just an angel that has G-d's name (presence) in it like it says Exodus 23:20-22 and in Isaiah 63:9-10. I think that G-d speaks through it like a telephone or puppet. You would hear the angel's voice, but really G-d could talk through it. Exodus 23:20-22 says listen to it's voice and do what G-d speaks because the angel speaks, but G-d is actually talking.


Where angels/messengers are named and are speaking on behalf of God, it’s clear that the messenger is a messenger, that he’s not giving his own message, rather the message given him by God. We see this in Daniel where the messenger Gabriel speaks with Daniel.

But in the case of מלאך יהוה he speaks with his own authority, and that authority is God himself, e.g. Numbers 22:31 and following. Notice he accepts the worship that belongs to God alone which the messengers don’t accept.

Kenneth Greifer wrote:Isaiah 63:10 mentions that they grieved G-d's spirit, but there are many quotes that mention different people's spirits being grieved or bitter because that was one way of describing emotions. Their spirit is not a separate being. For example, see Genesis 41:8.


Don’t take out of context and collapse contexts. In Isaiah 63:7–19 recounts God actions, God who is mentioned as יהוה and מלאך and רוח. Each is mentioned as an active agent. Each is mentioned with the corresponding actions for each of the persons in the trinity.

Can you find any verses where a spirit of a person is listed as an active agent distinct from the person himself? I can’t think of any off the top of my head.

Karl W. Randolph.

kwrandolph
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Re: Genesis 1.1

Postby kwrandolph » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:59 am

When were the angels created?

If we take the pagan myths as a clue, it was after the creation of the earth itself. All the pagan myths that I’ve heard mention a pre-existing earth that was a watery chaos. From that clue, the creation of the angels could be as late as the beginning of the second day.

Karl W. Randolph.

Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Genesis 1.1

Postby Kenneth Greifer » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:21 am

Karl,
About Numbers 22:31, it only says he bowed to the angel, and many people bowed to other people in the Bible and it didn't have to mean "worship." I can't list lots of quotes with examples right now.

Also, honestly, I am not sure that I understand some of your arguments about the different quotes, so I am not sure how to respond. For example, you want an example of a spirit of a person acting as an active agent distinct from the person. I am not sure if Isaiah 63 does that because I honestly am not sure if I know what you mean. I guess your arguments are above my head. I am not being sarcastic. I am just saying that I don't get your arguments, maybe Steve does.
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SteveMiller
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Re: Genesis 1.1

Postby SteveMiller » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:13 pm

kwrandolph wrote:
Kenneth Greifer wrote:Isaiah 63:10 mentions that they grieved G-d's spirit, but there are many quotes that mention different people's spirits being grieved or bitter because that was one way of describing emotions. Their spirit is not a separate being. For example, see Genesis 41:8.


Don’t take out of context and collapse contexts. In Isaiah 63:7–19 recounts God actions, God who is mentioned as יהוה and מלאך and רוח. Each is mentioned as an active agent. Each is mentioned with the corresponding actions for each of the persons in the trinity.

Can you find any verses where a spirit of a person is listed as an active agent distinct from the person himself? I can’t think of any off the top of my head.

Karl W. Randolph.


Karl and Kenneth,
Isa 63:14 is a stronger verse than v10 for the Spirit being God.
14 ... the Spirit of the LORD gave them rest ...

Regarding a person's spirit acting distinct from the person himself, how about :
1 Corinthians 5:3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing.
4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus,

14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.

Colossians 2:5 For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)


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