2 Samuel 8:3 geography questions

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Kenneth Greifer
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2 Samuel 8:3 geography questions

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

2 Samuel 8:3 שמואל ב
8:3וַיַּ֣ךְ דָּוִ֔ד אֶת־הֲדַדְעֶ֥זֶר בֶּן־רְחֹ֖ב מֶ֣לֶךְ צוֹבָ֑ה בְּלֶכְתּ֕וֹ לְהָשִׁ֥יב יָד֖וֹ בִּֽנְהַר־פְּרָֽת׃

JPS 1917 translation:
David smote also Hadadezer the son of Rehob, king of Zobah, as he went to establish his dominion at the river Euphrates.

2 Samuel 10:16
And Hadadezer sent, and brought out the Arameans that were beyond the River; and they came to Helam, with Shobach the captain of the host of Hadadezer at their head.

The word "Euphrates" is not in the Hebrew in 2 Samuel 8:3. It just says "the river."
DId these battles take place in Bashan or near Bashan?
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Kirk Lowery
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Re: 2 Samuel 8:3 geography questions

Post by Kirk Lowery »

Actually, your quotation includes "Euphrates" פְּרָֽת.

The NET Bible translation note here says:
The MT does not have the name "Euphrates" in the text. It is supplied in the margin (Qere) as one of ten places where the Masoretes believed that something was "to be read although it was not written" in the text as they had received it. The ancient versions (LXX, Syriac Peshitta, Vulgate) include the word. See also the parallel text in 1 Chr 18:3.
In 2 Samuel 10:16 "beyond the River" is a common expression for the region to the east of the Euphrates.

HTH,

Kirk
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Kenneth Greifer
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Re: 2 Samuel 8:3 geography questions

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Kirk,
Do you think these battles took place in Bashan?
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Jason Hare
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Re: 2 Samuel 8:3 geography questions

Post by Jason Hare »

Kenneth Greifer wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:29 am Kirk,
Do you think these battles took place in Bashan?
Do you mean to ask if Kirk (or anyone else, for that matter) thinks that the text makes the claim that these battles took place there? Or, are you actually asking for his opinion on an historical event?
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Kirk Lowery
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Re: 2 Samuel 8:3 geography questions

Post by Kirk Lowery »

Kenneth,

I haven't investigated the question, so I don't have an informed opinion. (As a practical matter, I would check several technical commentaries on the passage.)

My only intent was to address the linguistic/textual question of what the expression actually refers to. The only thing I claim is that the text is talking about the Euphrates.
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Re: 2 Samuel 8:3 geography questions

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Jason and Kirk,
I was just wondering if anyone knew the answer. Kirk answered part of my question, but I was hoping he might know if those places mentioned in 2 Samuel 8:3 and 2 Samuel 10:16 were in Bashan. I was having a hard time getting geographical information about that. The reason I asked here is because I could not figure out the answer by my own research. I tried, but I get confused about where places are.
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Re: 2 Samuel 8:3 geography questions

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

I found an article that said that the battle in 2 Samuel 10:16 was in Gilead, which was south of Bashan. Now I know the answer.
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Jason Hare
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Re: 2 Samuel 8:3 geography questions

Post by Jason Hare »

Kenneth Greifer wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:17 pm Jason and Kirk,
I was just wondering if anyone knew the answer. Kirk answered part of my question, but I was hoping he might know if those places mentioned in 2 Samuel 8:3 and 2 Samuel 10:16 were in Bashan. I was having a hard time getting geographical information about that. The reason I asked here is because I could not figure out the answer by my own research. I tried, but I get confused about where places are.
I also get lost in geography. You're not alone in that experience!
Jason Hare
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יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
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