Meaning of proverbs 23: 4

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kwrandolph
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Re: Meaning of proverbs 23: 4

Post by kwrandolph »

Jemoh66 wrote:I have said it before, your approach has a contribution to make, and I am always willing to glean from your hypotheses. My point here is that you charged Chris with medieval thinking, in contrast to your "son-of-the-reformation scientific" approach. I am only challenging THIS claim.
Even this claim is not novel. I read in http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Protestanti ... on+science that the early scientists in the 16th and 17th centuries openly cited the Reformation, in particular Luther, as the inspiration of their scientific work, even to the development of the scientific method. They also contrasted the scientific thinking to medieval thought.
Jemoh66 wrote: Your method is a method, and that is fine, but if you are going to claim it is scientific, while not carrying out classic scientific interchange with other scholars, then I think you are being inconsistent. One of the hallmarks of scientific enquiry is that it's authority comes from being "peer reviewed."
“Peer reviewed” as a requirement has come in only in the last few decades, and then as an ideological filter to defend a religious belief against scientific inquiry. It has been used as a religious weapon to defend religious dogma against scientific research, most notably research indicating Intelligent Design, also research questioning AGW (Anthropogenic Global Warming), by denying those researchers the chance of getting published in science journals. As such, this is post-modern science, not modern science.
Jemoh66 wrote: But you have set yourself up above other scholarly work.
Not me, personally, rather method.
Jemoh66 wrote: And when presented with proper scientific research on the MT for example, your classic reply is that you didn't bother to read it past the first few paragraphs. As to the article I posted, it deals strictly with data. There is no axe to grind. He finds in the data evidence of preservation and corruption in BOTH the consonantal text and the pronunciation as expressed by the pointing. So there is evidence at the consonantal level that they preserved much of the original consonantal text, but there is also data showing that even in the consonantal text, the Masoretes were influenced by their dialect of Hebrew. Then as to the pronunciation, the author presents evidence that suggests they had preserved a great deal of the ancient pronunciation, but again even here, the evidence showed they were influenced by their dialect and by Aramaic as well. So it is much more nuanced, and thus more difficult, because we have to decide when we are faced with medieval pronunciation, and when we are dealing with ancient pronunciation preserved through liturgy. This cannot be done without leveraging a significant amount of linguistic science.
I don’t recall the paper to which you allude. I at first thought you meant a paper that Chris had linked to, but now I’m not sure. I don’t recall my reasons that I didn’t read the whole paper.

Karl W. Randolph.
Last edited by kwrandolph on Thu Oct 01, 2015 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
kwrandolph
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Re: Meaning of proverbs 23: 4

Post by kwrandolph »

Galena wrote:
Karl said : In Ashkenazi synagogues the readings are in Ashkenazi Hebrew, in Sfardi synagogues the readings are in Sfardi Hebrew, in Yeminite synagogues the readings are in Yeminite Hebrew, and so forth, so why is it so hard to conceive that in Masoretic synagogues the readings would be in Masoretic Hebrew? These differences exist in spite of the Masoretic points which all these traditions use. Can you imagine how much change there was before the Masoretes invented the points?
But, Unfortunately Karl, by your parsing of my full response above and only answering to a part of it you have taken it all out of context and mis-understood the points I was exhaustingly trying to make. But never mind. It would have been nice if you could have given me a little credit by perhaps imagining that I knew all this about the different pronounciations in synagogues today in different communities, I have heard some of these differences you see especially the ones from Poland.
The response from Chris, misunderstanding. Do you stop and edit your posts to make sure they’re clear and no misunderstanding is possible?

Karl W. Randolph.
Jemoh66
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Re: Meaning of proverbs 23: 4

Post by Jemoh66 »

Isaac Fried wrote:1. There is no evidence that BH was ever spoken.
Exhibit A: וַיִּקְרָ֖א אֶל־מֹשֶׁ֑ה וַיְדַבֵּ֤ר יְהוָה֙ אֵלָ֔יו מֵאֹ֥הֶל מֹועֵ֖ד לֵאמֹֽר
Exhibit B: דַּבֵּ֞ר אֶל־בְּנֵ֤י יִשְׂרָאֵל֙ וְאָמַרְתָּ֣ אֲלֵהֶ֔ם
Exhibit C: וַֽיַּעֲשׂ֖וּ בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל כְּ֠כֹל אֲשֶׁר־צִוָּ֨ה יְהוָ֜ה אֶת־מֹשֶׁ֗ה
Exhibit D: דַּבֵּר֙ אֶֽל־אַהֲרֹ֔ן וְאָמַרְתָּ֖ אֵלָ֑יו

So far, I've got Adonai, Moshe, B'nei Yisra'el, and Aharon; all native speakers of BH
Jonathan E Mohler
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Galena
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Re: Meaning of proverbs 23: 4

Post by Galena »

Isaac commented : There is no evidence that BH was ever spoken.
Isaac a little surprised that you think this. Appealing to reason first: There are more languages with less written records, and practically no record of their history where scholars would never dare to question their existence as a spoken language, look at Etruscan as a classic example, short tiny inscriptions, yes in their thousands, but only on burial stones and shards and religious items. Why do some people insist on questioning the obvious when it comes to BH where if just 10 pages of a non biblical subject were found scholars would jump with delight and say hey look another spoken language. Besides, why on earth would the early Israelite peoples write in one language yet speak in another, quite a ridiculous notion?. This kind of thing is not anywhere attested in all of history as far as I am aware, but I might be wrong, hard to imagine.

Now biblical evidence: Consider please -
Nehemiah chapter 8
Isaiah 36:11
2 Kings 18:26
Ezra 4:6-7 where the letter was written in aramaic and there was no need to say this unless the composers were not writing in their mother language. I also would refer to Keil and Delitzsch's excellent hebrew analysis on this scripture.

Kindest regards
Chris
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Re: Meaning of proverbs 23: 4

Post by Kirk Lowery »

Chris,

Isaac will correct me if I get him wrong. But I think what Isaac is saying is the the ancient text was a written, liturgical (ritual?) language, and that everyday speech in ancient Israel would have been something different. But perhaps I've misunderstood him. ;-)
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Isaac Fried
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Re: Meaning of proverbs 23: 4

Post by Isaac Fried »

Chris,
You wrote: "Besides, why on earth would the early Israelite peoples write in one language yet speak in another"

Biblical Hebrew is not "another" language, nor is spoken Hebrew and Biblical Hebrew "different" languages (certainly not the pompous "cognate" languages). The way King David praised his God, and the way he spoke to his wives children may not have been the same. The way you prophesy about the-end-of-days, and the way you speak to your banker and grocer are not the same.
Spoken Hebrew is more precise as to what happened when, and is less inflectional. The connecting word אשר A$ER is also out, replaced by a mere שֶׁ $E. All minor (OK "minor") differences.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
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Re: Meaning of proverbs 23: 4

Post by Isaac Fried »

Kirk,
Yes, this is what I mean.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
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Galena
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Re: Meaning of proverbs 23: 4

Post by Galena »

Ok Kirk and Isaac, I did not read the question this way, I apologise, and yes I would have agreed to this anyway, but only in as far as I would speak to a dignitary in a more refined manner and with a choice of words commensurate with etiqutte, this I understand.
Kind regards
chris

PS, As I was considering this, It actually has just raised a question, do we have any writings at all where a distinction can be seen between informal and very formal modes of writing? In Dutch we still express formality by using different pronouns and changing certain spellings for some words, in English you do not have this, you just have to re-arrange the way you say the same sentence perhaps with an extra formal word thrown in for clarity, but we do not change the actual spelling of a word. But it is an interesting thought, does anyone have any evidence for this in Hebrew? Maybe some short innocuous conversational piece in the Bible even, where an informality was expressed for this very purpose?
Chris Watts
Jemoh66
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Re: Meaning of proverbs 23: 4

Post by Jemoh66 »

Isaac Fried wrote:Chris,
You wrote: "Besides, why on earth would the early Israelite peoples write in one language yet speak in another"

Biblical Hebrew is not "another" language, nor is spoken Hebrew and Biblical Hebrew "different" languages (certainly not the pompous "cognate" languages). The way King David praised his God, and the way he spoke to his wives children may not have been the same. The way you prophesy about the-end-of-days, and the way you speak to your banker and grocer are not the same.
Spoken Hebrew is more precise as to what happened when, and is less inflectional. The connecting word אשר A$ER is also out, replaced by a mere שֶׁ $E. All minor (OK "minor") differences.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
I agree, Isaac, this is natural, and can be observed in most languages (I would say all, but I don't know). This is exactly what the part linguistics called "text linguistics" (commonly known as discourse analysis) aims to study. Having said that, this kind of variety in discourse based on circumstance and variation of speaker/audience is well represented throughout the Hebrew Bible. In fact, just in the story of Joseph, we can see how a son speaks to his father, a father to his son, the brothers to Joseph, Joseph to Pharaoh, Pharaoh to Joseph, Joseph to the Baker. In Esther, the language between Mordecai and Esther is different that say between Esther as speaker and the king as audience. For this I would commend the book I have often cited, Longacre, Robert E. Joseph: a story of divine providence: a text theoretical and textlinguistic analysis of Genesis 37 and 39-48. Eisenbrauns, 2003.
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kwrandolph
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Re: Meaning of proverbs 23: 4

Post by kwrandolph »

Kirk Lowery wrote:Chris,

Isaac will correct me if I get him wrong. But I think what Isaac is saying is the the ancient text was a written, liturgical (ritual?) language, and that everyday speech in ancient Israel would have been something different. But perhaps I've misunderstood him. ;-)
But if that were the case, then the differences would be minuscule. Further, formal speech would have been the same as formal writing, just like in modern languages. So in that regard, Biblical Hebrew was spoken.

For example, when looking at quoted conversations and Qohelet, I find a similarity of style. Even to the words used. Thus, stylistically, Qohelet is kingdom era Biblical Hebrew, not post Babylonian Exile Hebrew.

Thus it’s wrong to say that Biblical Hebrew was not spoken. Rather a more accurate way is to say that Tanakh doesn’t contain the full range of spoken styles employed by everyday pre-Exile Hebrews.

Karl W. Randolph.
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