To you or for you

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S_Walch
Posts: 317
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Re: To you or for you

Post by S_Walch »

Ah, turns out it was 36:9, not 33:4 (I won't ask how I got 33:4 if you don't)

Isaiah 36:9 (Mas)
וְאֵ֣יךְ תָּשִׁ֗יב אֵ֠ת פְּנֵ֨י פַחַ֥ת אַחַ֛ד עַבְדֵ֥י אֲדֹנִ֖י הַקְטַנִּ֑ים וַתִּבְטַ֤ח לְךָ֙ עַל־מִצְרַ֔יִם לְרֶ֖כֶב וּלְפָרָשִֽׁים

Isaiah 36:9 (GIS)
ואיכה תשיב את פני פחת אחד מעבדי אדוני הקטנים ותבטח לכם על מצרים לרכב ולפרשים
Ste Walch
ducky
Posts: 656
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: To you or for you

Post by ducky »

Hi Ste,

I was just about to point that (after I did a little search).
(And I wonder how the לכם got there).
David Hunter
kwrandolph
Posts: 1235
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: To you or for you

Post by kwrandolph »

Kenneth Greifer wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:33 pm
ducky wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:06 pm Genesis 27:37 וּלְכָה אֵפוֹא מָה אֶעֱשֶׂה בְּנִי
Isa. 3:6 שִׂמְלָה לְכָה
2Sam 18:22 וּלְכָה אֵין בְּשׂוֹרָה מֹצֵאת
Thanks for finding these quotes. I was looking at 2 Samuel 18:22 and they translate it "there is not a reward ready", but it looks like "there is not a reward from going forth" to me. I am sure that some translations say it that way. Do you know of any?
Who “translates” that verse that way? From where does the word “reward” come? בשורה comes from the root meaning “to report, often a good report”.

Further, these three uses of לכה come from the irregular root הלך which is often used figuratively rather than always as a physical action. לכה is sometimes used where English uses “come”.

Genesis 27:37 “Go where? What can I do?” figurative use.
Isaiah 3:6 “Come and you can be a commander over us” Hebrew uses “Go” where English uses “Come”.
2 Samuel 18:22 “Come now! You haven’t found a report” We see from the previous verses that Kushi had seen what happened to Absalom, but Ahimaats had not seen, therefore hadn’t “found a report”. This was not a command to go to give a report to David, rather to stop demanding to go and give a report to David.

Karl W. Randolph.
ducky
Posts: 656
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: To you or for you

Post by ducky »

Hi Karl,

I read what you wrote and it seems to me very unreasonable.
Let's talk about it verse by verse.
We'll start in Genesis, and then, we'll move forward.
kwrandolph wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:45 pm Genesis 27:37 וּלְכָה אֵפוֹא מָה אֶעֱשֶׂה בְּנִי
Genesis 27:37 “Go where? What can I do?” figurative use.
1. I can see that you tranalsted the word אפוא as "where" (as איפה)?
How come?
It doesn't mean that.

2. This word doesn't mean איפה, and "where=איפה" would not fit the syntax as well.
This "where=איפה" means something like: "in what place"
So:
In what place are the people? (where are the people?)
in what place have you been? (where have you been?)
In what place should I sit? (where should I sit?)
But not:
In what place would I go? - (would not mean: Where would I go?)
In this case, (Where would I go?), Hebrew would use another word for the "where" (and not: איפה).

(I Edited this part to be clearer).

3. When you write “Go where? What can I do?”
What do you mean?
Do you mean that Isaac talks about himself?
(Where would I go?)

Please explain the meaning of this figurative meaning of "go where".
And please explain this Hebrew form לכה? (its grammar form).
Because I can't understand you and I don't see how it fits.
Last edited by ducky on Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
David Hunter
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: To you or for you

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

ducky wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:51 pm Hi Karl,

I read what you wrote and it seems to me very unreasonable.
Let's talk about it verse by verse.
We'll start in Genesis, and then, we'll move forward.
kwrandolph wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:45 pm Genesis 27:37 וּלְכָה אֵפוֹא מָה אֶעֱשֶׂה בְּנִי
Genesis 27:37 “Go where? What can I do?” figurative use.
1. I can see that you tranalsted the word אפוא as "where"?
How come?
It doesn't mean that.

2. Even if it meant that, this "איפה=where" doesn't fit.
The word איפה comes to describe a known place (specific).
Usually, it would come linked to a noun:
(Where are the people?) (a specific place).
Or, it can come linked to a past action:
(where have you been?) (a specific place).
But it doesn't come to describe an unknown place:
(where would I go?).

Edit:
This "where=איפה" means more something like: "in what place"
So:
In what place are the people? (where are the people?)
in what place have you been? (where have you been?)
In what place should I sit? (where should I sit?)

But not:
In what place would I go.
In this case, this word "where" is not איפה.
I was looking up the word translated as "where" and it is often translated as "then." For example, Genesis 27:33 a few lines before this quote. It doesn't make sense as "where" to me.

ויחרד יצחק חרדה גדלה עד מאד ויאמר מי אפוא הוא הצד ציד ויבא לי ואכל מכל בטרם תבוא ואברכהו גם ברוך יהיה

Isaac was seized with very violent trembling. “Who was it then,” he demanded, “that hunted game and brought it to me? Moreover, I ate of it before you came, and I blessed him; now he must remain blessed!”

(The translation is from Sefaria's English translation.)
Last edited by Kenneth Greifer on Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kenneth Greifer
ducky
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Re: To you or for you

Post by ducky »

Of course it doesn't mean that.

**
My second note about the word איפה was not because as if there is a chance that it does mean that.
But only to say that not only the word is not to be understood like that, but also the syntax doesn't allow it.
David Hunter
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: To you or for you

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

ducky wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:26 pm Of course it doesn't mean that.

**
My second note about the word איפה was not because as if there is a chance that it does mean that.
But only to say that not only the word is not to be understood like that, but also the syntax doesn't allow it.
I am sorry. I thought you meant it means "where" in a different way, but you didn't say what you think it means in reality.
Kenneth Greifer
ducky
Posts: 656
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: To you or for you

Post by ducky »

Hi Kenneth,

Thanks for pointing that. I didn't know that I was unclear.
**
As for אפוא
I don't know what English word to use to translate that.
This word comes to give strength.
(I guess "then" is fine).
David Hunter
ducky
Posts: 656
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: To you or for you

Post by ducky »

I didn't mention the obvious - that the איפהcimes before the verb and not after it
David Hunter
kwrandolph
Posts: 1235
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: To you or for you

Post by kwrandolph »

ducky wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:51 pm 1. I can see that you tranalsted the word אפוא as "where" (as איפה)?
How come?
It doesn't mean that.
How come? Misreading it. Just like getting the wrong verse number.

Karl W. Randolph.
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