Miniscule 'Tav' in Esther 9:9

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Chris Watts
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Miniscule 'Tav' in Esther 9:9

Post by Chris Watts »

I have just searched and found that I am not allowed to add attachments so if anyone has an interest in this question I could send the small image attachment by email, the attachment has some hebrew notes from the Second Rabbinic Bible I am told?

This concerns the small letter 'Tav' in the the name of one of haman's son: 'parmashtah'. Not in the Name: 'parshandatah' from verse 7. One attachment included

The question concerns its appearance in the Hebrew bibles from the Society for the Distribution of the Hebrew scriptures and the one from the Dutch Gereformeerde Stichting actually published by Tyndale, that I believe, I hope I am not mistaken, are based upon the 2nd Rabbinic Bible. The following manuscripts that I was able to find and actually read Esther online do indeed have a small Tav, Shin, Zayin and a large Vav in haman's sons (but none of the below have a small Tav in 'parmashtah'):

B Legerton 67A dated between 1500 - 1600
Scroll from Holland dated 1600 - 1700
Salom d'Itali who printed this in Amsterdam dated between 1600 - 1700
Andrea Marelli dated between 1570 - 1573
Lleida Cervara dated 1299/1300

As a side note a Spanish Bible from Toledo dated 1260 does not have any small or large letters, nor the Codex Bodmer from Al-Andulus dated to 13th century. These were all I could find that I was able to read.

Upon writing to SDHS in England asking them upon what validity/authority did they base their version of this verse in Esther they kindly sent me the attachment, that I have included, with a comment that this was the reason/validation for including that small 'Tav' in Esther 9:9; but the person who wrote to me could not translate the notes and could not give me any further information.

My question is therefore:
1) Can someone translate the notes in yellow please?
2) Does anyone know upon which MS's the second Rabbinic Bible might be based upon and has anyone seen this small 'Tav' in any manuscript?

Thankyou
Chris Watts
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Jason Hare
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Re: Miniscule 'Tav' in Esther 9:9

Post by Jason Hare »

I wish I could see that text image. I'm sure you can link to it somewhere.
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Chris Watts
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Re: Miniscule 'Tav' in Esther 9:9

Post by Chris Watts »

I will email the person at SDHB and ask where he actually got what he sent me.
Chris Watts
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Re: Miniscule 'Tav' in Esther 9:9

Post by Chris Watts »

Jason Hare wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 3:34 pm I wish I could see that text image. I'm sure you can link to it somewhere.
I am an idiot, he provided a link in his email which I have only just noticed.

Go to Page 343 of https://archive.org/details/The_Second_ ... 2/mode/1up

To the left and to the right you will see notes.
Glenn Dean
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Re: Miniscule 'Tav' in Esther 9:9

Post by Glenn Dean »

Hi:

Here's the small letters (tav, shin, zayin) and the large letter (vav) in Esther 9:7-9 (you have to be logged-in to see the picture)
Esther9-7_9.jpg
The small tav is in the 2nd word Verse7
The small shin is in the 2nd word Verse9
The small zayin is in the final word Verse 9

The large vav is in the final word Verse 9

Glenn
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Last edited by Glenn Dean on Thu May 13, 2021 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Glenn Dean
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Re: Miniscule 'Tav' in Esther 9:9

Post by Glenn Dean »

apparently this represents the year 5707 (large vav = 6th millenium = 'year 5000', tav = 400, shin = 300, zayin = 7)

Glenn
Chris Watts
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Re: Miniscule 'Tav' in Esther 9:9

Post by Chris Watts »

Glenn Dean wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 7:00 pm apparently this represents the year 5707 (large vav = 6th millenium = 'year 5000', tav = 400, shin = 300, zayin = 7)

Glenn
Glen, Hallo, Thankyou but this was not my question. I am aware of the above and have a total of 9 co-incidences concernng this chapter that are difficult not to align with Julius Streicher's last words at Nurenberg, as has been said by a mathematician, how many co-incidences does it take before something is no longer a co-incidence?

Aside from this, my question concerns the validity of that small TAV as you can read in my original post. I am unable to understand the symbols and the side notes that are in the second Rabbinic bible the (Mikarot Gadolot) and upon what authority/Manuscript did Jacob ben Chayyim base this upon.

I hope you understand
Thankyou
Chrs watts
ducky
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Re: Miniscule 'Tav' in Esther 9:9

Post by ducky »

Hi Chris,

I didn't find a yellow note, but I can assume you talk about the notes on the side.

The relevant note for this issue is on the left side. It's said that in other books the R and the T are small.

As you can see, the print itself doesn't follow that note.
The accepted MS is that the Shin is small (as it is said in the note on the right side, if I see right).

You can see in this print that in the title of Levi there is a square (with the word ויקרא in it).
This square is surrounded by text.
The text that in the right side on the square also writes it - that the R and the T are small.
And that is notes that this print knew.
But I don't think it is very loyal.
https://archive.org/details/The_Second_ ... 7/mode/2up

I don't know if there is any hand-script that writes that.
And also, I looked at Minhat Shai (a MS book) and he writes that the R and T are not small.
And on another note (for another case), he writes that "some say" that the R and T are small.
But the fact that he says "some say" means that he didn't see it (and he saw a lot).

I don't know why your bible chose to focus on that note and t not follow the accepted one.
But as you can see, even the print wrote it just as a note.
David Hunter
Chris Watts
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Re: Miniscule 'Tav' in Esther 9:9

Post by Chris Watts »

ducky wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:36 am Hi Chris,

I didn't find a yellow note, but I can assume you talk about the notes on the side.

The relevant note for this issue is on the left side. It's said that in other books the R and the T are small.

As you can see, the print itself doesn't follow that note.
The accepted MS is that the Shin is small (as it is said in the note on the right side, if I see right).

You can see in this print that in the title of Levi there is a square (with the word ויקרא in it).
This square is surrounded by text.
The text that in the right side on the square also writes it - that the R and the T are small.
And that is notes that this print knew.
But I don't think it is very loyal.
https://archive.org/details/The_Second_ ... 7/mode/2up

I don't know if there is any hand-script that writes that.
And also, I looked at Minhat Shai (a MS book) and he writes that the R and T are not small.
And on another note (for another case), he writes that "some say" that the R and T are small.
But the fact that he says "some say" means that he didn't see it (and he saw a lot).

I don't know why your bible chose to focus on that note and t not follow the accepted one.
But as you can see, even the print wrote it just as a note.
Hallo David,

I am not that well versed in hebrew that I can fully understand what I am reading in your link. The link I posted replicates the yellow note I was sent and I re-post the link here: Go to Page 343 of https://archive.org/details/The_Second_ ... 2/mode/1up
This actually is Esther chapter 9, I could not work out what on earth your link was, I am sorry. Hope you can elaborate for me please. Here also is the yellow highlighted notes:


Also I presume you mean by "....the R and the T.." the resh and the tav? I am confused now.

Thanks
Chris Watts
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ducky
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Re: Miniscule 'Tav' in Esther 9:9

Post by ducky »

Hi Chris,
I didn't see that picture, but I was talking about the same yellow notes.
On the left side I seeפרמשתא ס"א רי"ש תי"ו זעיר' ------- ף
And on the right side I see ל שי"ן זעיר' ---------ף
So these notes talk about the letter as I said in my last post

And yes. When I wrote R and T it is like Resh and Tav.
David Hunter
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