Miniscule 'Tav' in Esther 9:9

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Chris Watts
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 8:00 am

Re: Miniscule 'Tav' in Esther 9:9

Post by Chris Watts »

ducky wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 1:30 pm Hi Chris,
I didn't see that picture, but I was talking about the same yellow notes.
On the left side I seeפרמשתא ס"א רי"ש תי"ו זעיר' ------- ף
And on the right side I see ל שי"ן זעיר' ---------ף
So these notes talk about the letter as I said in my last post

And yes. When I wrote R and T it is like Resh and Tav.
No I only just managed to post the picture David. But it is all cryptic to me, apart from the word Parmashtah which I see, the rest is incomprhensible, my original question remains however whether someone can translate what it actually means. Plus, I am sorry, but it becomes even more cryptic since I have no idea where the letter 'Resh' comes into all this. I am also confused when you mention Levi and the hebrew word for "He Called" in your last post. To put it plainly - I am even more in the dark now by the explanation that you have given. Sorry.

Chris Watts
Glenn Dean
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Joined: Tue May 26, 2020 6:28 pm

Re: Miniscule 'Tav' in Esther 9:9

Post by Glenn Dean »

ducky wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 1:30 pm Hi Chris,
I didn't see that picture, but I was talking about the same yellow notes.
On the left side I seeפרמשתא ס"א רי"ש תי"ו זעיר' ------- ף
And on the right side I see ל שי"ן זעיר' ---------ף
So these notes talk about the letter as I said in my last post

And yes. When I wrote R and T it is like Resh and Tav.
Thanxs Ducky for that info!! Nice detective work!

Glenn
ducky
Posts: 669
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: Miniscule 'Tav' in Esther 9:9

Post by ducky »

Hi Chris,

Try to follow me.

The script is "Rashi script" and it is a little different than the regular one.
So I wrote above the letters
ס"א רי"ש תי"ו זעיר = in other books the letters Resh and the Tav are small.
(This note says that even though the common way is to keep these letters in their regular size, there are a/some book/s that write/s them small).

***
When I wrote above "he called"=ויקרא - I meant the book of Leviticus.
The word ויקרא is the first word in Leviticus, and that is how this book is called in Hebrew.

Anyway, I gave you a link, and if you'll click on it - you will see more clearly that the name פרמשתא is written with two dots/lines above it - one above the Resh and one above the Tav.

In this link, the writer wrote already all of the words in the bible that he claims that they should be written small (or at least that some claim that).
So over there, you can also see this more clearly.

[[ Moderator Note: I changed "Levi" to "Leviticus" to make it understandable. - Jason ]]
David Hunter
Chris Watts
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 8:00 am

Re: Miniscule 'Tav' in Esther 9:9

Post by Chris Watts »

ducky wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 3:06 pm Hi Chris,

Try to follow me.

The script is "Rashi script" and it is a little different than the regular one.
So I wrote above the letters
ס"א רי"ש תי"ו זעיר = in other books the letters Resh and the Tav are small.
(This note says that even though the common way is to keep these letters in their regular size, there are a/some book/s that write/s them small).

***
When I wrote above "he called"=ויקרא - I meant the book of Leviticus.
The word ויקרא is the first word in Leviticus, and that is how this book is called in Hebrew.

Anyway, I gave you a link, and if you'll click on it - you will see more clearly that the name פרמשתא is written with two dots/lines above it - one above the Resh and one above the Tav.

In this link, the writer wrote already all of the words in the bible that he claims that they should be written small (or at least that some claim that).
So over there, you can also see this more clearly.

[[ Moderator Note: I changed "Levi" to "Leviticus" to make it understandable. - Jason ]]
Hallo David, thank you for the simpler explanation I appreciate this. But I have a question and observations if you want to comment:

1. What on earth is the name of those of Haman's sons doing in the book of of Leviticus squiggled awkwardly on the right side beside the Title?
2. That RESH has no circle above it in any of my copies, but does indeed have a HALF circle above the TAV with a note below which of course I can not read. Nevermind. Is there a difference between the half circle and the full circle above a letter?
3. Does my note with the words that are Highlighted in Yellow, that I uploaded, offer any extra information, can you translate that at all?
ducky
Posts: 669
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: Miniscule 'Tav' in Esther 9:9

Post by ducky »

Hi Chris,

1. In the Book of Levi, the first word is ויקרא, and its letter Aleph is small.
The scribe of this book "saw an opportunity" to write a full list of all of the words with small letters - just as a a list.
It is not part of the book itself.
But at the same page (the first page of Levi) he wrote the general list of words with small letter.

2. I didn't see your copy.
All I can say is about the edition you gave the link too.
So according to what I see, this edition has the small Shin only,
But it also gives a note about the R and the T written small.

3. I translated the yellow parts already.
it's said פרמשתא
then it's said ס"א (initial letters for ספרים אחרים=other books)
then it writes רי"ש (letter Resh)
***(letters are written with the mark " inside it)***
then it writes תי"ו (it is a little scrubbed) - meaning letter Tav
then it writes 'זעירא/זעיר which means "small"

So it wants to say that in some other books the R and the T are small.
David Hunter
Chris Watts
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 8:00 am

Re: Miniscule 'Tav' in Esther 9:9

Post by Chris Watts »

ducky wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 4:01 pm Hi Chris,

1. In the Book of Levi, the first word is ויקרא, and its letter Aleph is small.
The scribe of this book "saw an opportunity" to write a full list of all of the words with small letters - just as a a list.
It is not part of the book itself.
But at the same page (the first page of Levi) he wrote the general list of words with small letter.

2. I didn't see your copy.
All I can say is about the edition you gave the link too.
So according to what I see, this edition has the small Shin only,
But it also gives a note about the R and the T written small.

3. I translated the yellow parts already.
it's said פרמשתא
then it's said ס"א (initial letters for ספרים אחרים=other books)
then it writes רי"ש (letter Resh)
***(letters are written with the mark " inside it)***
then it writes תי"ו (it is a little scrubbed) - meaning letter Tav
then it writes 'זעירא/זעיר which means "small"

So it wants to say that in some other books the R and the T are small.
Hallo David,

I wish to apologise since I am keenly aware that I have put you to a lot of trouble. Thankyou for your exhaustive explanations I really do appreciate this. I have tried to find references on the net regarding these notes in the Rabbinic bible, do such references exist? Once again Thankyou for your efforts.
Chris Watts
ducky
Posts: 669
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: Miniscule 'Tav' in Esther 9:9

Post by ducky »

Hi Chris,

You do not put me in trouble at all.

I don't know where you can find it, but I guess that a book about the Masora would have a chapter about it.

most of the notes repeat themselves
a common one would be the letter ל - which comes to say that it is an alone form (no other form elsewhere).

So if you look at the top of page 343 (the same page you looked at) you'd see three notes with the letter ל
1. אורה - no other form like it.

2. שמחה וששן - no other combination like it.
(I guess it was important to note that since there are the (opposite) combinations of ששון ושמחה).
There is one case of שמחה וששון right in the next chapter, and the note there just writes ל - for saying - there is no other place that writes it like that.

3. וששן - no form like it
(the note write ל with the note חס)
חס is short for חסר (missing (as defective spelling).
So in this case, this is the only place where this word comes written like that.

***

Some notes are just letters to sign the number.
For example, on the next line
ויקר - the note says first ב=2
which comes to say that there are 2 cases of this word written with Qamats
And then it adds וכל ארמית דכו - which means "and every Aramaic is like them"
דכ=דכותיה/דכותיהון = Aramaic for "like him/them"

**
the same line has another note about ובכל... ובכל
and it says ה פסוקים ובכל ובכל
ה=5
פסוקים=verses
so 5 verses in the bible which have the combination of ובכל... ובכל

And so on...
David Hunter
Chris Watts
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 8:00 am

Re: Miniscule 'Tav' in Esther 9:9

Post by Chris Watts »

Thankyou David. A little bit wiser now you have de-mystified a few points.
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