B-Hebrew: The Biblical Hebrew Forum

Dear friends,
In the Song of Moses, in Deu 32, who is the foolish nation in verses 28-33?

Verse 26 surely refers to Israel:
26 I would say, I will scatter, I will make the remembrance of them to cease from among men, (Deu 32:26 DBY)

Verse 27 surely refers to Israel's persecutors, the foolish nation from v21b
27 If I did not fear provocation from the enemy, Lest their adversaries should misunderstand it, Lest they should say, Our hand is high, and Jehovah has not done all this. (Deu 32:27 DBY)

Do verses 28 go back to v26 to continue talking about Israel, or do they continue talking about Israel's persecutors from v27?
28 For they are a nation void of counsel, And understanding is not in them.
29 Oh that they had been wise! they would have understood this, They would have considered their latter end!
30 How could one chase a thousand, And two put ten thousand to flight, Were it not that their Rock had sold them, And Jehovah had delivered them up? (Deu 32:28-30 DBY)

It seems that verses 28-30 expound v27 and so would refer to the persecuting nation.

In Verse 31 who is "their" in "their rock": Israel or the persecuting nation? Should it be the same nation in the preceding verses?
(In v37 "their rock" is Israel's false gods.)
31 For their rock is not as our Rock: Let our enemies themselves be judges. (Deu 32:31 DBY)

So far, I would say that vv28-30 refer to the persecuting nation and "their" in v31 to Israel.

But, then the next verses seem to refer to Israel because Israel's moral condition is likened to Sodom in many places.
32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, And of the fields of Gomorrah: Their grapes are grapes of poison, Bitter are their clusters;
33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, And the cruel venom of vipers. (Deu 32:32-33 DBY)

Then verses 34-43a clearly refer God's vengeance on the persecuting nations:
34 Is not this hidden with me, Sealed up among my treasures?
35 Vengeance is mine, and recompense, For the time when their foot shall slip. For the day of their calamity is at hand, And the things that shall come upon them make haste. (Deu 32:34-35 DBY)

Any thoughts on who is being talked about in vv28-33?
Thanks.

This is my understanding of these verses.
Verse 26
אָמַרְתִּי אַפְאֵיהֶם אַשְׁבִּיתָה מֵאֱנוֹשׁ זִכְרָם
is spoken by God about Israel.
אַפְאֵה-הֶם I will marginalize (Rashi, from פאה) them, I will cut them off. אַפְאֵה-הֶם with הֶם for Israel, זִכְרָם = זכר-הם with הם for Israel.
After this harsh verdict comes the mitigating proviso, the retreat, of verse 27.
לוּלֵי כַּעַס אוֹיֵב אָגוּר פֶּן יְנַכְּרוּ צָרֵימוֹ פֶּן יֹאמְרוּ יָדֵנוּ רָמָה וְלֹא ה' פָּעַל כָּל זֹאת
Namely, God will not allow Israel to be totally annihilated lest the enemy will deny it is God's deed.
Then, God returns to lament the blindness of the nation of Israel to the obvious fact that their misfortunes are all due to God having sold them out.
כח. כִּי גוֹי אֹבַד עֵצוֹת הֵמָּה וְאֵין בָּהֶם תְּבוּנָה
כט. לוּ חָכְמוּ יַשְׂכִּילוּ זֹאת יָבִינוּ לְאַחֲרִיתָם
ל. אֵיכָה יִרְדֹּף אֶחָד אֶלֶף, וּשְׁנַיִם יָנִיסוּ רְבָבָה אִם לֹא כִּי צוּרָם מְכָרָם וַה' הִסְגִּירָם
צוּר-הם = צוּרָם with הם being Israel.
Now comes an editorial statement
כִּי לֹא כְצוּרֵנוּ צוּרָם וְאֹיְבֵינוּ פְּלִילִים
צוּרֵנוּ = צור-אנוּ with אנוּ being Israel, namely "our God". צוּרָם = צור-הם with הם being the oppressing nation, namely "their god". I think that פְּלִילִים means 'notoriously criminal'.
They (the enemies) are, indeed, vicious and venomous
לב. כִּי מִגֶּפֶן סְדֹם גַּפְנָם וּמִשַּׁדְמֹת עֲמֹרָה עֲנָבֵמוֹ עִנְּבֵי רוֹשׁ אַשְׁכְּלֹת מְרֹרֹת לָמוֹ
לג. חֲמַת תַּנִּינִם יֵינָם וְרֹאשׁ פְּתָנִים אַכְזָר

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Steve:

This question requires reading and analyzing starting from verse #1 to get the full context. I haven’t had the time to do that.

A quick reading makes me think that it refers to anyone who rebels agains God, both Israel and nations.

Karl W. Randolph.

Thanks much, Isaac.

Isaac Fried wrote:This is my understanding of these verses.
Verse 26
אָמַרְתִּי אַפְאֵיהֶם אַשְׁבִּיתָה מֵאֱנוֹשׁ זִכְרָם
is spoken by God about Israel.

for sure

Isaac Fried wrote:אַפְאֵה-הֶם I will marginalize (Rashi, from פאה) them, I will cut them off. אַפְאֵה-הֶם with הֶם for Israel, זִכְרָם = זכר-הם with הם for Israel.

yes

Isaac Fried wrote:After this harsh verdict comes the mitigating proviso, the retreat, of verse 27.
לוּלֵי כַּעַס אוֹיֵב אָגוּר פֶּן יְנַכְּרוּ צָרֵימוֹ פֶּן יֹאמְרוּ יָדֵנוּ רָמָה וְלֹא ה' פָּעַל כָּל זֹאת
Namely, God will not allow Israel to be totally annihilated lest the enemy will deny it is God's deed.

Yes. This is the argument Moses used with God after the golden calf.

Isaac Fried wrote:Then, God returns to lament the blindness of the nation of Israel to the obvious fact that their misfortunes are all due to God having sold them out.
כח. כִּי גוֹי אֹבַד עֵצוֹת הֵמָּה וְאֵין בָּהֶם תְּבוּנָה
כט. לוּ חָכְמוּ יַשְׂכִּילוּ זֹאת יָבִינוּ לְאַחֲרִיתָם
ל. אֵיכָה יִרְדֹּף אֶחָד אֶלֶף, וּשְׁנַיִם יָנִיסוּ רְבָבָה אִם לֹא כִּי צוּרָם מְכָרָם וַה' הִסְגִּירָם
צוּר-הם = צוּרָם with הם being Israel.

Yes, "their Rock" in v30 surely means "Israel's Rock". But the meaning of verses 28-30 could also go the other way to refer to Israel's enemies. In v27 Israel's foes say "Our hand is high and the Lord has not done all of this".
vv28-29 could apply to either Israel or the oppressing nation, and it would seem, in the context of the whole song being mainly about Israel, that it refers to Israel.
But v30 says "How could 1 chase 1,000 ... unless their Rock had sold them .." Referring back to v27, this could mean that the oppressing nation thinks, "We are so strong, one of us can chase 1,000 Jews" without considering that it was not due to that nation's strength, but to God having given up Israel.
Then, looking at v29 in which God laments that "they" would have been wise and considered their latter end: "latter end" seems to me to refer more to the persecuting nation than to Israel. Israel needs to consider her present catastrophe. The persecuting nation needs to consider that God will judge them at their latter end.
Another possible reason to apply vv28-30 to the persecuting nation is that they are called goi. Goi can refer to Israel, but in this song, goi always refers to a Gentile nation (v8, 21) and Israel is always called am (v6,9,36,43).
Fww, both Stone Tanach and Soncino Press refer vv28-30 to Israel's enemies. Soncino also refers vv32-33 to Israel's enemies, but Stone refers vv32-33 to Israel.
I would like a stronger point to decide who vv28-30 refer to, but as I am writing this I am convincing myself that vv28-30 refer to the persecuting nation.

Isaac Fried wrote:Now comes an editorial statement
כִּי לֹא כְצוּרֵנוּ צוּרָם וְאֹיְבֵינוּ פְּלִילִים
צוּרֵנוּ = צור-אנוּ with אנוּ being Israel, namely "our God". צוּרָם = צור-הם with הם being the oppressing nation, namely "their god". I think that פְּלִילִים means 'notoriously criminal'.

Why do you translate פְּלִילִים as 'notoriously criminal'? That makes a big difference. Then you would translate v31-32 as, "For their rock is not as our Rock. And our enemies are notoriously wicked for their vine is the vine of Sodom ...".
That translation would demand that vv32-33 refer to Israel's foes.

Back to v31, it could mean "for their (oppressing nation's) rock is not as our (Israel's) Rock" - as you have said.
Or could it mean, "for their (apostate Israel's) rock (as in v37) is not as our (Moses' and the faithful's) Rock."?
Do you agree that "their rock" in v37 refers to the false things fallen Israel had trusted in?
I prefer your meaning, but "their rock" in v37 led me to take the 2nd meaning.
I think your interpretation of v31, makes v30 refer to the oppressing nation because of the connecting "for".

Isaac Fried wrote:They (the enemies) are, indeed, vicious and venomous
לב. כִּי מִגֶּפֶן סְדֹם גַּפְנָם וּמִשַּׁדְמֹת עֲמֹרָה עֲנָבֵמוֹ עִנְּבֵי רוֹשׁ אַשְׁכְּלֹת מְרֹרֹת לָמוֹ
לג. חֲמַת תַּנִּינִם יֵינָם וְרֹאשׁ פְּתָנִים אַכְזָר

Sodom & Gomorrah is a good description of the Nazis. But Biblically, Sodom and Gomorrah, is only used to describe Israel, which doesn't seem fair to me, but that's what God said. Sodom was a place of homosexual rape and murder. But since only Israel is described as Sodom and Gomorrah, that was pretty strong for me to refer vv32-33 to Israel.

Thanks again, Isaac. It is very helpful to me to discuss these things with someone knowledgeable.

kwrandolph wrote:Steve:

This question requires reading and analyzing starting from verse #1 to get the full context. I haven’t had the time to do that.

A quick reading makes me think that it refers to anyone who rebels agains God, both Israel and nations.

Karl W. Randolph.

Karl, you actually have to go back to 31:19 which tells the purpose of the song, and 31:28-29 is a short summary of it.

fww, here is my organization of the structure of the song:
I. Introduction vv 1-6
a. Attention vv 1-2
b. Summary vv 4-5
c. Consider v6
II. Preciousness of Israel to God vv 7-12
III. Jacob's prosperity vv 13-15a
IV. The problem: Jacob gave up God vv 15b-18
V. God's response vv 19-27
VI. God's lament vv 28-33
VII. The Lord's vengence on Israel's enemies vv 34-43b
VIII. Atonement for Israel v 43c

Steve says
Yes, "their Rock" in v30 surely means "Israel's Rock". But the meaning of verses 28-30 could also go the other way to refer to Israel's enemies. In v27 Israel's foes say "Our hand is high and the Lord has not done all of this".
vv28-29 could apply to either Israel or the oppressing nation, and it would seem, in the context of the whole song being mainly about Israel, that it refers to Israel.
Says I
I am convinced verses 28-29 are about Israel, only they could be the גוֹי אֹבַד עֵצוֹת הֵמָּה וְאֵין בָּהֶם תְּבוּנָה. The "Nazis" are not a גוֹי (Israel is often referred to in the HB as GOY: וּמִי כְעַמְּךָ כְּיִשְׂרָאֵל גּוֹי אֶחָד בָּאָרֶץ Sam(2) 7:23), and they are certainly not confused and naive. To the contrary, they are precise and sure in their premeditated ruthless machinations and sinister intentions. It is only Israel that is blind, confused and gullible concerning the causes of אַחֲרִיתָם, 'their fate'.

Steve says
But v30 says "How could 1 chase 1,000 ... unless their Rock had sold them .." Referring back to v27, this could mean that the oppressing nation thinks, "We are so strong, one of us can chase 1,000 Jews" without considering that it was not due to that nation's strength, but to God having given up Israel.
Says I
I don't think so. These are the words of Moses chastising Israel for not seeing (חָכְמוּ יַשְׂכִּילוּ יָבִינוּ) the obvious, that their total rout is due to the fact that they spurned God (צוּרָם) and that He, in His hurt, left them vulnerable and defenseless.

Steve says
Why do you translate פְּלִילִים as 'notoriously criminal'? That makes a big difference. Then you would translate v31-32 as, "For their rock is not as our Rock. And our enemies are notoriously wicked for their vine is the vine of Sodom ...".
That translation would demand that vv32-33 refer to Israel's foes.
Says I
Moses lived in constant fear, and hence his repeated blessings and maledictions הברכות והקללות, the fear that when he is gone, Israel will turn his back on him and on his monumental effort to instill in them the Torah, as delivered unto his hands on mount Sinai. He is not afraid that the man of Israel will turn evil, only that they will leave תורה ומצוות; and being shifty, leery by זנוּת העין והלב, and prone to erring, they will fall under the spell of foreign ideologies, fade away into the mass of easy-going, "liberated", humanity around them, and vanish, together with the Torah, forever.
One must admit that he was at once right and wrong. There has always been a constant and substantial erosion and dissipation at the entire periphery of the nation of Israel, but on the other hand, there always was, and there always will be, a voluntary insular קיר ברזל וחומת נחושת hard core, tenaciously and uncompromisingly adhering to all the exhaustingly and relentlessly demanding tenets and obligations of תורת משה, to the best of their honest understanding.
Moses is not wasting his time and pouring heart on the oppressing nations, he is speaking about his deepest concern: the moral well-being of nation of Israel. The oppressing nations are but ephemeral and incidental instruments in the hand of God. Therefore, in my estimation צוּר-אנוּ=צוּרֵנוּ of verse 31 is certainly 'our God', the God of Israel, and צוּרָם = צוּר-הם is the ideological "rock" of the other nations. What Moses is saying is that, unlike the other "rocks", the God of Israel is compassionate and loving, always ready to accept back, and reward, the penitents, in the words of Jeremiah השיבנו יהוה אליך ונשובה חדש ימינו כקדם.

Steve says
Why do you translate פְּלִילִים as 'notoriously criminal'?
Says I
First, there is no doubt in my mind that אויבים -אנו = אֹיְבֵינוּ are the nations hostile to Israel, the haters of Israel. Second, פלילים from the root פלל, is in my opinion 'talk, pass judgement, find guilty' as in Job 31:28
גַּם הוּא עָו‍ֹן פְּלִילִי כִּי כִחַשְׁתִּי לָאֵל מִמָּעַל
NIV: "then these also would be sins to be judged, for I would have been unfaithful to God on high.
thus, I am pressed to say that וְאֹיְבֵינוּ פְּלִילִים can mean only 'our detractors are convicted criminals'.

Steve says
Sodom & Gomorrah is a good description of the Nazis. But Biblically, Sodom and Gomorrah, is only used to describe Israel, which doesn't seem fair to me, but that's what God said. Sodom was a place of homosexual rape and murder. But since only Israel is described as Sodom and Gomorrah, that was pretty strong for me to refer vv32-33 to Israel.
Says I
The only thing Moses accuses Israel of is of being morally spaced-out, mindless, misguided, irresolute, confused, weak of heart; he does not think them murderers, rapists or otherwise submitting to loathsome practices. He confronts them with only one peremptory demand: to unconditionally cling to his TORAH, תורת משה, via an absolute love of God. Thus, I tend to think that the dreadful words of verses 32-33 are aimed at the rapacious other nations, not Israel.

Isaac Fried, Boston University