Genesis 6:1 "born"

Classical Hebrew morphology and syntax, aspect, linguistics, discourse analysis, and related topics
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Jason Hare
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Re: Genesis 6:1 "born"

Post by Jason Hare »

Kenneth Greifer wrote:I read that there are 85 quotes with kal or qal passive verbs in them, and I know that some people here have fancy software that can easily list them. I tried to find a list on the internet, but I couldn't. Maybe someone here can look up that list and put it here please. Thank you.
I can make you a list when I get home if no one has already done so. I'll be leaving here in about five hours.
Jason Hare
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Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

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kwrandolph
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Re: Genesis 6:1 "born"

Post by kwrandolph »

Jonathan Beck wrote:
False. The “Wayyiqtol” is used also for present and future actions. Therefore it cannot be a marker for past tense.
False. The Wayyiqtol from is ALWAYS past narrative.
False. While I don’t have a copy of his dissertation, Dr. Furuli in this forum reported that while doing research for his dissertation, he found well over 100 Wayyiqtols in contexts referring to present or future actions. If you look at Proverbs 31:10–31, you can find Wattiqtols (feminine Wayyiqtols) in a context that indicates present, continuous action.
Jonathan Beck wrote:What you're saying is true for the ve+yiqtol construction. This is why reading vowels is necessary.
Go ahead. Look at the points. Then tell me that I’m wrong.

Karl W. Randolph
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Re: Genesis 6:1 "born"

Post by Jonathan Beck »

kwrandolph wrote: False. While I don’t have a copy of his dissertation, Dr. Furuli in this forum reported that while doing research for his dissertation, he found well over 100 Wayyiqtols in contexts referring to present or future actions. If you look at Proverbs 31:10–31, you can find Wattiqtols (feminine Wayyiqtols) in a context that indicates present, continuous action.
I didn't find his dissertation, but I did read about it. It was lambasted. You don't have a copy of it for a reason. I don't believe it was ever published. Others in the academy unanimously dismissed what he was saying as inaccurate. Of course, I'm sure you'll say they were wrong to do so, that Furuli was mistreated and that he was actually correct. But in light of the controversy surrounding him, I hope you understand why I don't consider what he says as "Gospel Truth" without question.

If you can make it through that paragraph without getting too angry, I will say this. Professor of Hebrew at Oslo, right? That's legitimate. He wouldn't be there if he weren't intelligent. But even good scholars have bad theories. Now, on to the main course...

Go ahead. Look at the points. Then tell me that I’m wrong.
OK! I'm in the process of going through Proverbs, as you say. Yes, there are feminine wayyiqtols because there are females as subjects, so that makes sense why they are feminine (I'm not sure what their being feminine has to do with your argument). But, I have found one so far, and I agree with you. It appears that they can be used to denote present action....

...in Proverbs. And other poetic texts.

I call it the Past Narrative tense for a reason -because it's used in past narrative texts. Therefore, it would stand to reason that it would serve a different function in poetic texts. I'm sorry I did not clarify that I wasn't talking about poetry. But it makes sense that this form would naturally have a different/more varied function in poetry, does it not?

I'm planning to go through the wayyiqtol in Psalms as well to see if the same is true. It is much less common in there, I believe.

Jonathan
Last edited by Jonathan Beck on Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jonathan Beck
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Re: Genesis 6:1 "born"

Post by Jonathan Beck »

Kenneth Greifer wrote:I read that there are 85 quotes with kal or qal passive verbs in them, and I know that some people here have fancy software that can easily list them. I tried to find a list on the internet, but I couldn't. Maybe someone here can look up that list and put it here please. Thank you.
Hi Kenneth,

As Jason said, he can find you a list. But I wanted to apologize to you, that you had to sift through all this mud-slinging and arguing to find what you need. Pay no heed to the crazy Hebrew supernerds. Don't let us scare you off. :)

Jonathan
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Genesis 6:1 "born"

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Jonathan Beck wrote:
Kenneth Greifer wrote:I read that there are 85 quotes with kal or qal passive verbs in them, and I know that some people here have fancy software that can easily list them. I tried to find a list on the internet, but I couldn't. Maybe someone here can look up that list and put it here please. Thank you.
Hi Kenneth,

As Jason said, he can find you a list. But I wanted to apologize to you, that you had to sift through all this mud-slinging and arguing to find what you need. Pay no heed to the crazy Hebrew supernerds. Don't let us scare you off. :)

Jonathan
Jonathan,
Thanks, but I kind of started it by asking Karl to explain his disagreements with Gesenius. I like to read debates about subjects, even if I don't fully understand the details. I honestly have no idea about what you all are debating because it is very technical, so in this case, it is not as interesting to me.
Kenneth Greifer
kwrandolph
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Re: Genesis 6:1 "born"

Post by kwrandolph »

Jonathan Beck wrote:I didn't find his dissertation, but I did read about it. It was lambasted. You don't have a copy of it for a reason. I don't believe it was ever published.
Yes it was published. It was possible to buy copies.

Lambasted by whom? There may be ulterior reasons for lambasting his work apart from its quality, or lack thereof.
Jonathan Beck wrote:Others in the academy unanimously dismissed what he was saying as inaccurate.
His main thesis is that the verbal conjugations are tenseless. I had already come to the same conclusion years earlier based on my reading Tanakh, apart from a systematic study on that narrow subject.
Jonathan Beck wrote:But in light of the controversy surrounding him, I hope you understand why I don't consider what he says as "Gospel Truth" without question.
I don’t take his word as “Gospel Truth” either. For example, his definition of “aspect” is like nothing I have ever seen before, plus he denounced the definition found on the SIL definitions page based on his definition.
Jonathan Beck wrote:If you can make it through that paragraph without getting too angry, I will say this. Professor of Hebrew at Oslo, right? That's legitimate. He wouldn't be there if he weren't intelligent. But even good scholars have bad theories. Now, on to the main course...

Go ahead. Look at the points. Then tell me that I’m wrong.
OK! I'm in the process of going through Proverbs, as you say. Yes, there are feminine wayyiqtols because there are females as subjects, so that makes sense why they are feminine (I'm not sure what their being feminine has to do with your argument).
Because I called them “Wattiqtols” instead of “Wayyiqtols”.
Jonathan Beck wrote: But, I have found one so far, and I agree with you. It appears that they can be used to denote present action....

...in Proverbs. And other poetic texts.

I call it the Past Narrative tense for a reason -because it's used in past narrative texts. Therefore, it would stand to reason that it would serve a different function in poetic texts. I'm sorry I did not clarify that I wasn't talking about poetry. But it makes sense that this form would naturally have a different/more varied function in poetry, does it not?
Does poetry use a different grammar than prose? I say “No” therefore making poetry also source material on how to understand prose.

All verbs in historical narrative, except for quoted speech, refer to past events. That is irrespective of conjugation. It’s the context that makes that determination.

The most common use of the Wayyiqtol is in historical narrative. That’s to be expected from my understanding of the uses of the Yiqtol. My understanding is that one of the uses of the Yiqtol, the Wayyiqtol is the same, is that of a “secondary indicative” or “continuing indicative” that in historical narrative carries the narrative along by adding what comes next. In other contexts, it is to give more information about the subject. The latter use is the main use of Yiqtols (and Wayyiqtols) in Proverbs 31:10–31.
Jonathan Beck wrote:I'm planning to go through the wayyiqtol in Psalms as well to see if the same is true. It is much less common in there, I believe.

Jonathan
I was taught that the word “tense” means that certain conjugated forms indicate when an action takes place. For example, in English “go” and “went” (apart from “helper verbs”) refer to present and past actions respectively, just from the form of the verb. So when I say that the Biblical Hebrew verbs are tenseless, that means that the form of the verb, its conjugation, doesn’t determine when its action takes place, rather something else determines its action time; and in the case of Biblical Hebrew, that something else is context.

Karl W. Randolph.
Jonathan Beck
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Re: Genesis 6:1 "born"

Post by Jonathan Beck »

Does poetry use a different grammar than prose? I say “No” therefore making poetry also source material on how to understand prose.
No, it's an entirely different corpus, written way earlier than your narrative literature (or most of it, anyway). The rules are different in that there is an entirely different cantilation system. And no, Psalms has its own system of grammar. It's standard for poetry. At the very least, if you don't want to say that Psalms has its own system of grammar, at the very least, you have to say that there are many, many exceptions to the standards posed by prose (see what I did there? :))

I'm going to investigate these wayyiqtol forms in poetry more thoroughly. At the least, it's an exception. 90% of all of the wayyiqtol forms refer to past time. But you are right: I can no longer say that the wayyiqtol form is ALWAYS past. I concede that point. Well done. :)
ducky
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Re: Genesis 6:1 "born"

Post by ducky »

Hi Karl, and Everyone

I also like the idea of "tenseless", and this is my basic view as well.
But also, we cannot ignore the common pattern that does have aspects of tense.

And so, my view is, as always, a matter of evolution. And when I say Evolution, I mean Evolution inside the bible itself.

(I also see that in the issue of the roots evolution which is also inside the bible itself, but that's another subject).

We cannot just say: "In the Bible...", and set a fact that it is all one style.

And therefore, We also shouldn't say that there is no difference between the poetry and the prose.
And that is because the old poetries (and/or old proverbs) use the old style of telling ideas. And also the "modern" (biblical) poetries also use it sometimes since poetry has its own "life" (in all languages).

The prose, which is more "organized" and try to be clearer with the writing and tell the events, uses more "tensed" style.
While the peotry is more about telling Ideas and so it feels comfortable to use the verb in a a general style.

And I think that at first, (after the "aspect" of verbs was created) the verbs was used fr ideas only.
And the poetry, which is the first type of writings, kept that.
When the prose or an organized story was created, the verbs evolved as well and was organized according to aspect of tense (perfect and imperfect).

And so, we do need to see a difference between poetry and prose.
Just like we can't ignore the tensed (aspects) pattern in the prose, we also cannot ignore the clear different style that it is in poetry
****
About אשת חיל in proverbs...
It could be that the verbs relate to what I wrote above.
Or there is an option that this song was originally was written about a specific woman (in her lifetime, or even after her death told on her grave), and later on, this personal song became a folk song which was sang for praised women.

************************
About חברי הטובים / חברי טובים...

Even though it was said already...
when there is a direct description to the noun, it carries it definte way.
But when the description is not direct (as a predicate) it is woithout it.

so for example...
"The good king is wise".
there are two descriptions:
1. good.
2. wise.

In Hebrew is would be:
המלך הטוב חכם
The king the good wise

The "wise" is a predicate and it is not definite.
The "good" is a direct description to the definite noun, and so it is definite too.

so my good friend are good = חברי הטובים טובים
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Jason Hare
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Re: Genesis 6:1 "born"

Post by Jason Hare »

ducky wrote:About אשת חיל in proverbs...
It could be that the verbs relate to what I wrote above.
Or there is an option that this song was originally was written about a specific woman (in her lifetime, or even after her death told on her grave), and later on, this personal song became a folk song which was sang for praised women.
מבריק!‏ I like it!
Jason Hare
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www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

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Jason Hare
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Re: Genesis 6:1 "born"

Post by Jason Hare »

ducky wrote:so my good friend are good = חברי הטובים טובים
And, by extension, "my friends are good" = חברי טובים.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian
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