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Re: Genesis 6:1 "born"

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:42 pm
by Jonathan Beck
Ducky, Bravo! Not sure if I completely agree with Hebrew being tenseless, as I said above about the wayyiqtol (aside from, apparently, in the poetical texts). But well said! Bravo!

Re: Genesis 6:1 "born"

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:48 pm
by ducky
Hi Jason and Jonathan,

Jason, thanks.

I don't want to be misunderstood so notice that even though I said that the "tenseless" view is my basic view, My actual view about the Hebrew is evolution.

When I read the Bible, I cannot say that it is really tenseless, because we do see a pattern.
And so, When I wrote "tenseless"' I'm talking about a one early stage which its traces is found in old style.

But I would also like to say that even though this is my view, I don't say that I'm sure of it.

Also, the prefix W is not relevant for this and all of the W's wre the same at first.

what's important is the verb itself.

So as I said, I'm also not sure - but this is my view that I have in my mind.

The scholars who follow the aspects of times doctrine also have an explanation about the "strange" forms.
They say for example, that the qtl in poetry that refer to the future can be a result of an "excitement" that the poetry brings. as if the future act was already happen.
It doesn't fully convince me but it also makes sense.
Poetry has a sense of excitement (unlike a boring prose), because poetry talks about great ideas of saving a man, and praising, or sorrow, which "put" the writer in another "life".
And also, as we know, poetry is more free than prose, and just by thatwe can say that the chnage of the verbs forms are a matter of Freedom and to varry the text.

About the YQTL that represent the past...
Also here, the research shows that the short form of the YQTL (without the archaic suffix) (which is the one that is used in these cases) is also found in Akkadian for example, as one that not only represent the "command", but also represent the past (which is interesting).
And so, here we can say, that Hebrew uses it the same way.

My view was based of looking at the poety and look at it as the one that uses "traces" of old style.
The research would say the opposite. They say that it is not likely that the poetry writers "lost the sense" of the tenses. And that is because the prose proves that the tenses was used.
So we have to say that the poetry writers did have the "sense of tense".

So to tell the truth, I'm not sure in my mind if what we see is really old style of aspect of ideas that the verbs represent, and the poetry writers used that way.
Or it is just use a known form of the yqtl that represent the past, and also use the qtl as future to represent an "excitement".

In 2Sam 22:14 it is the old poetry and the verb is writeen in the short form (which is easy to see in Hiphil) as ירעם (with no W) and refer to past.
And in the late rewrite of the same song, in Psalm 18:14 the word is written וירעם (with W) - and the writer "fixed" the verb by adding this W.

So we do see here an evolution which at first, it was "fine" to write yqtl without W to represent the past, but later it was "fixed" and became "clearer".

So as I said, I'm also not sure at this, but it is a thought which I had/have in my mind for a long time, but it relevant mostly to poetry and "old style" and not for the prose which its text is more "evolved".

Re: Genesis 6:1 "born"

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:38 pm
by Kenneth Greifer

I understand that you are probably busy, but I am hoping that you can find the time to get that list of kal or qal passive verb quotes. Thank you.

Re: Genesis 6:1 "born"

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:07 am
by Jason Hare
Hi, Kenneth.

I sent you a PM here on the forum yesterday asking for your email address. I have the file saved as a Word document (.docx), but I cannot attach it to a forum message (even a PM).

Could you send me your email address?

I didn't forget, and I put it together as soon as I got home yesterday.


Re: Genesis 6:1 "born"

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:09 am
by Jason Hare
By way of playing with words...

"I have the file saved" can be reworded as "I have the file. It is saved." The adjective "saved" clearly modifies "file," but it isn't part of the noun phrase, as in "I have the saved file." This is the difference between what we saw earlier with חרבו שלופה, by the way.

Re: Genesis 6:1 "born"

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:13 am
by Kenneth Greifer
I looked and there is no private message from you for some reason. My email address is "greifer" and then the "at" symbol and then "hotmail dot com". I heard you should not write it out on the internet because they have things that search for email accounts on the internet and then send you a lot of junk email.

Thank you for getting the information for me.

Re: Genesis 6:1 "born"

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:36 pm
by Jason Hare
I'm just out going to the store. Will send it when I get home in about half an hour.

Re: Genesis 6:1 "born"

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:05 pm
by Jason Hare
I've sent it from my address.

Re: Genesis 6:1 "born"

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:09 pm
by Kenneth Greifer
Thanks for sending it to me. I have to look at the quotes with a translation, so it might take a long time for me to look at them. So far, Genesis 25:22 and Genesis 43:18 are confusing.

Genesis 25:22 בראשית
וַיִּתְרֹֽצֲצ֤וּ הַבָּנִים֙ בְּקִרְבָּ֔הּ וַתֹּ֣אמֶר אִם־כֵּ֔ן לָ֥מָּה זֶּ֖ה אָנֹ֑כִי וַתֵּ֖לֶךְ לִדְרֹ֥שׁ אֶת־יְהוָֽה׃

Genesis 43:18 בראשית
וַיִּֽירְא֣וּ הָֽאֲנָשִׁ֗ים כִּ֣י הֽוּבְאוּ֮ בֵּ֣ית יוֹסֵף֒ וַיֹּאמְר֗וּ עַל־דְּבַ֤ר הַכֶּ֙סֶף֙ הַשָּׁ֤ב בְּאַמְתְּחֹתֵ֙ינוּ֙ בַּתְּחִלָּ֔ה אֲנַ֖חְנוּ מֽוּבָאִ֑ים לְהִתְגֹּלֵ֤ל עָלֵ֙ינוּ֙ וּלְהִתְנַפֵּ֣ל עָלֵ֔ינוּ וְלָקַ֧חַת אֹתָ֛נוּ לַעֲבָדִ֖ים וְאֶת־חֲמֹרֵֽינוּ׃

I don't understand which verb is the qal passive in these quotes.

Re: Genesis 6:1 "born"

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:33 am
by Jason Hare
You're absolutely right. I don't see it either. As I said in the introduction of the file:
These references have not been vetted. They were pulled from BibleWorks version 10 with the search paramaters .*@vy* for “Hebrew verbs qal passive all conjugations.” According to the search results, there are 90 separate forms in 127 verses.
This probably accounts for why you said that you had heard that there were 85, but BibleWorks returned 90. There are probably five disparate results within the file. I put in the code to search for the forms, and then copied it directly to Word and sent it your way.