Your signature says: "Honesty is the best policy".
You started this thread by saying that you are arguing with another person on YouTube that reads this chapter as a sign for the Massiah.
But I guess that you and your friend are the same person?
You "catch" me on a "word" but I continued my post and explained the meaning of my words fully.
I wrote "temple" because that is the symbol of the destruction of the city.
In Jer. 51:12 it is said that Nebuchadnezzar *Entered Jerusalem* and destroyed the temple in the 19th years of his ruling.
So it is the same thing.
And the counting of the 7 sevens is from that time.
and the counting of the 70 years is from the time of this prophecy which was almost 20 years before the destruction.
The calculation is as I said in my previous post.
If you count from that prophecy, you still get ~70~ years to Cyrus Cylinder.
Just a note...
There are another "70 years of rage" in another book in the bible, which seemed to be calculated differently.
But that is just a note.
We counted here 45-55 years from the destruction.SteveMiller wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:57 pmThanks, David. That is helpful to me to see this timeline, but that is the time from the destruction of the temple to Cyrus, not from Jeremiah's prophecy to Cyrus.ducky wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:30 am In Jer. 51:12 it is said that Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the temple in the 19th years of his ruling.
The Prophecy of Jer. says that Jerusalem will start to be built after 70 years of Babylon Ruling. (29:10)
Now take these 70 years minus 19 years = 51
and that is the time that is counted according to the bible.
And if you'll go to the Historians...
Then the temple was destroyed in -586
The Cyrus Cylinder is in -538
But that specific Jer. prophecy was something about 20 years before that.
Therefore, ~49~ years from that point (and Jer. other prophecies about Jerusalem)
and ~70~ from Jer. prophecy (about the 70 years)
Or just go backward, if it's more comfortable for you.
Babylon will be "gone" After 70 years (As Jer. said).
And then go back ~49~ years, and that is the era of the temple-destruction.
And then go back 15-20, and you'll get the time of the exile, and the prophecy of Jer.
I don't understand you.SteveMiller wrote: ↑Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:22 pm As I said before, you make an excellent point that Daniel was to understand this prophecy.
Cyrus' proclamation came shortly after this, and it was a monumental miracle.
Daniel would understand this as the beginning of the 70 weeks.
Daniel does not ask, When will Jerusalem be built? He already knows that from Jeremiah's prophecy.
Daniel prays for God to act to fulfill His promise.
The answer through Gabriel tells Daniel that there will be a word to restore Jerusalem. It will be unmistakable.
And you will know that what you have prayed has been answered.
First, you say that my point is a good point. And then you take the opposite side of what my point says.
Daniel could not get a "prophecy of date" if the starting-point of the count is unknown. It's ridiculous. It is like he didn't get any date at all.
So the "word" is either the prophecy of Jer.
or it is the specific time of Daniel and his prayer (as I said before).
Ohh, That's the new invention now?
I thought that the "Massiah" arrived as a "Massiah" at the moment he was born.
At least that is what Luke 2:11 says
[NIV] "Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord"
But if we're already twisting the "OT", why not do it also to the "NT"?
Yea... The problem with that is the there was no anointing of the holy of holies or any other tool or any other man in the second temple. The oil was missing from the end of the first temple. And there was not another one that was made.
Also, in the post-biblical books, it is mentioned that the oil is missing from the second temple.
It does.SteveMiller wrote: ↑Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:22 pm If it should be translated:
From the going forth of the word to return and to build Jerusalem unto messiah the prince are 7 weeks.
And [then for] 62 weeks she shall return and be built...
If the above is the meaning, then the "and 62 weeks" line should start with a waw consecutive.
Or I didn't understand you.
Or maybe I didn't understand you?
Don't limit yourself to these verses alone.
The prophecy of the people's return comes in a few places.
So we already saw that Jer. talks about the return to be in 70 years.
And later, when he talks about this return he also says that the city will be built.
30:18 ונבנתה עיר על תלה
31:37 ונבנתה העיר ל-ה ממגדל חננאל עד שער הפנה (and continues)
And check chapet 33
and עוד ישמע במקום הזה... אשיב את שבות הארץ כבראשונה
and in verse 14 והקמתי את הדבר הטוב
הדבר הטוב is like in 29:10
So the prophecy is not only for the returning of the people but also about the building of the city.
And by the way, Isaiah also said about Cyrus that he'll build the city.
I know you are a very accurate man, So can I guess that you call this Isaiah prophecy a false prophecy?
(we both agree that you won't).
Anyway, Jer. does talk about the city as well.
I also don't agree with his viewkwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm Really? Seeing as the Jeremiah prophesies cited above lack any mention of rebuilding Jerusalem, how would he see Cyrus’ proclamation as a start of the 70 sevens prophecy? Especially, according to Ezra, Cyrus’ proclamation extended only to the rebuilding of the temple which included some support structures?
But a general note for your wondering...
as I said before, Just like Isa. call Cyrus the city builder, so does Jer.
And another general thing...
Everything in life is "rolling"
You cannot see the returning of the people to their city and don't call it a first step to restore it.
And you cannot see the building of the temple, which is the Heart of the nation and city, and don't see it as a first step of restoring the city.
But anyway, it doesn't matter.
We already saw that both Isaiah and Jeremiah talked about Cyrus (directly or indirectly) as the builder.
Up until this point, you talked 3-4 times about how Cyrus did not command to build the city.kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm Daniel wants to see Jerusalem rebuilt, but he’s not promised that it will happen in his lifetime. Rather he’s told to know and understand from the command to rebuild the city itself to the destruction of the nation is 490 years (70 sevens). From recorded history, Cyrus did not command the rebuilding of the city.
If that is the only argument about rejecting the link between Jer. prophecy and the "word" in Daniel, then the answer is simple as I wrote above.
What you are trying to do is to shoot the arrow, and then run to paint the circle.kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm In Daniel 9, verse 24 refers to the whole 490 years. Verse 25 mentions two time periods—one 49 years until an anointed national leader (not necessarily Jewish), one 434 years. for rebuilding the city. Verse 26a refers to Messiah being killed after the 434 years, in other words sometime from 435–440 years. Verses 26b–27 detail the destruction of the city, temple, and nation with enough detail that it fits the historic records of the Roman suppression of the Jewish revolt.
I said it before, understanding this that way means that Daniel got nothing from Gabriel.
Because if I'll tell you to count 490 from X, did I really say something?
If I don't know what is the X, so I don't really care how many years I need to count, right?
The starting point must be known.
If it wasn't known, then why the prophecy to Daniel?
Surely after this, he knew no more than any other man.
Just as Jer. got a date-prophecy which had a starting point - we expect Daniel's prophecy to have the same principle, and if not, then what is its use?