Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

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ducky
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by ducky »

Hi Kenneth,

Yes.

Most really sees it as the seven days of the "wedding", (and so, I shouldn't have been so decisive about the other way), but there is another way to see it - as referring to the seven years of work that Jacob did.

So I agree that this was not a good example to give, since the context, in this case, allows both ways of reading - so I actually said nothing with this.

But even through that, the principle of context is still valid.
And in the story of Daniel, what we see is that Daniel counts the years, and the whole context is "yearly". and so the mindset of the reader is also based on "years".
And if there was a switch in the mindset of the reader, the writer would have probably made a "move" to show that switch, such as writing the word "days" or something like that.
But since there is no such "move" so we have to assume (at least I am) that the writer saw it fine to keep it like that with the understanding that the reader is already thinking about "years".
David Hunter
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SteveMiller
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by SteveMiller »

Kenneth Greifer wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:35 pm Steve,
First of all, I am sorry to hear about your father dying. I am amazed that he lived to 104 and taught math for 80 years, if I read the information correctly. He sounds like he was a very fascinating person.
Your argument is very creative. All I can think of is if a Jewish person was a slave for six years, did it have to start at the first month of the year, and did the rule have a different form of the word "year" to show that it was not starting in the first month? Your argument is surprising, but I don't think Daniel ate a certain way for three weeks starting on the wrong day, so he used a different word for "weeks", but who knows for sure?
ducky wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:01 pm Hi Steve,

First, I'm sorry for your loss,
I can see that your dad was a great and honorable man.
David and Kenneth,
Thanks very much for reading the tribute to my Dad.
That comforts me to see that his life is appreciated.
Kenneth, yes, you read it right. He taught for 80 straight years, usually teaching 2 shifts + teaching Hebrew school and tutoring.
We had 7 kids so he had to work a lot.
I see now that when someone dies at 104 years old after bearing fruit in so many lives, it is not sad to see him go.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by SteveMiller »

kwrandolph wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:46 pm Do you have any quotations of Cyrus’ command that includes the building of Jerusalem? The only quotes of Cyrus’ command that I found are in Ezra 1:2 and 2 Chronicles 36:23 and neither includes the rebuilding of Jerusalem.
The one I quoted before:
Isaiah 44:28 that saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and he shall perform all my pleasure; even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
kwrandolph wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:46 pm A second problem I have is with the dates. According to several sources on the web, Cyrus lived from about 590–530 BC. If the 490 years of the prophesy started during the life of Cyrus, then the 490 years would have ended no later than about 40 BC, with the final seven years a time of war including the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. I don’t find such a war in history.
Neither you nor I trust the secular dates for the pre Roman time frame. I think the secular dates are off for Cyrus.
kwrandolph wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:46 pm
SteveMiller wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pm When Gabriel tells Daniel that there will be a word coming to return and to restore Jerusalem, Daniel would recognize Cyrus' miraculous decree as that word.
Aren’t you jumping to conclusions here?
Why would that not be a valid conclusion?
Would not Daniel know about Cyrus' proclamation?
Would Daniel not see that as the fulfillment of Jeremiah's 70 years concerning which Daniel prayed in Daniel chapter 9?
If I was Daniel I would see that as the word to return and to build Jerusalem.
kwrandolph wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm Where in Jeremiah’s prophesy?
SteveMiller wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pm Daniel says in 9:2 that he understood from Jeremiah's prophesy the time is now to return to Jerusalem.
That still doesn’t say that he assumed that Jerusalem would be rebuilt at that time.
I am not saying that Daniel knew how long it would take to rebuild Jerusalem.
Just that the return to Jerusalem was imminent.
kwrandolph wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm
SteveMiller wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pm I think it is very strong that Daniel was to understand what the word to return and to rebuild Jerusalem would be.
That word would be in his lifetime.
According to the Isaiah, Cyrus did command the rebuilding of the city. That trumps any recorded history for you and me.
No it doesn’t, especially not the history recorded in Ezra, Nehemiah and 2 Chronicles.

Look carefully at the prophesy in Isaiah, the verbs are Yiqtol. One of the uses of the Yiqtol conjugation is the subjunctive. So while he may have said that Jerusalem should be built, Cyrus’ actual command as recorded in Ezra 1:2 and 2 Chronicles 36:23 mentions only the temple.
So your problem with Isa 44:28 is because the verb is imperfect and not imperative?
It is still a word to return and to rebuild Jerusalem.
Which verses do you think are the word to return and to build Jerusalem?
If it is Neh 2:7-8, they do not command the return or the building of the city. It gives permission to secure the needed materials to build the gates of the palace and for the walls.

And what do you do with Gabriel's word to Daniel to "know and understand"? What would he know and understand?
kwrandolph wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm
SteveMiller wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pm I don't think that is always true for a case like this. אחר an event would mean "after that event", yes. But אחר a time unit could include in the last part of that time unit. In the NT, Jesus said he would rise after 3 days, and also rise on the 3rd day. So "after 3 days" can mean "on the 3rd day" at least in Greek and English.
There are problems with this argument. 1) It’s outside Tanakh. 2) We’re dealing with different languages. 3) Even in Greek, the “after” is not clear. Rather “the third day” fits Greek usage.
SteveMiller wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pm When, for example, Gen 7:10 says "after 7 days", it doesn't necessarily mean on the 8th day, but may mean on the 7th day.
Genesis 7:10 doesn’t say “after seven days”. ויהי לשבעת הימים
Thanks very much, Karl. I did a more careful check on achar. You are right. achar xxxx means after xxxx.
So the Messiah was cut off 15 days after the end of 69th week.
kwrandolph wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm
SteveMiller wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pm This passage is all about 70 weeks. And then inside the prophesy we have 7 and 62 and 1 weeks, which added together = 70.
The default position should be that the 3 numbers of weeks given do not overlap, but add up to the 70 weeks.
With no linguistic basis for this default position, why defend it? The ו merely indicates that we’re dealing with another, separate time period.

The 70 sevens (490 years) is concurrent with all three of the subdivisions.

The 70 sevens and the seven sevens are concurrent also with the start date, they start at the same time.

The final seven is concurrent with the end of the 70 sevens.

The question remains: is the 62 sevens duration concurrent to the beginning of the 70 sevens or sequential to the seven sevens? If we take the end of the 70 sevens at the end of the Jewish Revolt at Masada, then the beginning of the 70 sevens correlates with the command given to Nehemiah to rebuild Jerusalem. The history recorded in Nehemiah claims that within a few months of receiving the order to rebuild Jerusalem, he had rebuilt the walls of the city and was in the process of repopulating it. This action on Nehemiah’s part indicates that the fulfillment of the 62 sevens, at least its beginning, started immediately after the giving of the word to rebuild Jerusalem. Therefore it’s concurrent with the seven sevens to be counted before the coming of the anointed national leader.

That the 62 sevens starts with a ו doesn’t necessarily indicate that it follows the seven sevens mentioned second. The ו can just as well merely indicate another span of time.

Concerning the use of the word “anointed” משיח, it is used of several people, including national leaders like King Saul, Cyrus, religious leaders like the priests, and one called simply משיח. The one who is called anointed may not even be Jewish nor know the Lord, as in the case of Cyrus. נגיד implies a national, political leader. So the משיח נגיד implies a political, national leader anointed by God. I would suggest that the political, national leader in verse 25 was Alexander the Great, who was born 49 years after Nehemiah rebuilt Jerusalem’s walls.

Karl W. Randolph.
I'm trying to work out your theory based upon what you've shared:
Word to Nehemiah - start of 490 years - year 0 - 414 BC
Alexander the Great, the messiah prince - year 49 - 365 BC
Messiah cut off - after 62nd week, so year 434 - 18 - 21 AD
7 weeks not called out in divisions - year 483 67 AD
Masada - year 490 - 73 AD
Is this your theory?
Is that significantly different than what you shared before, like more than a year ago?
I probably misunderstood it back then.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by SteveMiller »

Kenneth Greifer wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:51 pm From my research, the word "days" there could mean that he didn't eat certain food for three weeks during the daytime.
I was thinking somewhat along those lines also. The 3 weeks included Passover week. So I thought Daniel would be required to eat the lamb or goat for the Passover meal.
But 10:3 put that idea to bed.
Daniel 10:3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine into my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, until three weeks of days were fulfilled.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
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http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
kwrandolph
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by kwrandolph »

SteveMiller wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:44 pm I'm trying to work out your theory based upon what you've shared:
Word to Nehemiah - start of 490 years - year 0 - 414 BC
Alexander the Great, the messiah prince - year 49 - 365 BC
Messiah cut off - after 62nd week, so year 434 - 18 - 21 AD
7 weeks not called out in divisions - year 483 67 AD
Masada - year 490 - 73 AD
Is this your theory?
Is that significantly different than what you shared before, like more than a year ago?
I probably misunderstood it back then.
This is not just my theory, rather it’s how I read and understand the text. However, the dates are ±10 years. No, it’s not different from what I shared before. Rather, what I said then is that I don’t trust the dates given by modern historians, which I just repeated.

After all, the Jewish revolt could have been 70–77 AD, for all we know.

What follows are the reasons why I understand this passage this way.

To start out, looking at the beginning of verse 27, that it starts with והגביר indicates that it is a continuation of verse 26b. The antecedent of והגביר is עם נגיד הבא. That means that verses 26b and 27 are a unit, describing the same event.

I also noticed על כנף שקוצים משמם referring to idols with wings causing desolation—the Roman soldiers at the time of the Jewish revolt were told that their battle standards were gods to be worshipped—שקוץ is used at times as a synonym of idol. The Roman battle standards at the time of the Jewish revolt were eagles with wings.

Another clue that we deal with the same event—the suppression of the Jewish revolt—is that both the general who started the Roman action, and the one who finished it, later became emperor. Thus fulfilling the coming national leader.

The war lasted seven years, half-way through sacrifices and offerings were caused to stop and that by the destruction of the temple.

With all the parallels between the Jewish revolt and the last verse and a half of Daniel’s 70 sevens, I then concluded that the prophesy ended here. That means the beginning was 490 years earlier. And the rest falls into place. The only fly in the ointment is that secular historians don’t agree on the dates, but then the evidence is that they may be off.
SteveMiller wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:44 pm
kwrandolph wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:46 pm Do you have any quotations of Cyrus’ command that includes the building of Jerusalem? The only quotes of Cyrus’ command that I found are in Ezra 1:2 and 2 Chronicles 36:23 and neither includes the rebuilding of Jerusalem.
The one I quoted before:
Isaiah 44:28 that saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and he shall perform all my pleasure; even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Verse 28:
האמר לכורש רעי וכל חפצי ישלם ולאמר לירושלם תבנה והיכל תוסד
Who is the one speaking for לאמר? Is that not God who is speaking, and not Cyrus? How is the translation you quoted not inaccurate, “translating” ו as “even”?
SteveMiller wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:44 pm
kwrandolph wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:46 pm A second problem I have is with the dates. According to several sources on the web, Cyrus lived from about 590–530 BC. If the 490 years of the prophesy started during the life of Cyrus, then the 490 years would have ended no later than about 40 BC, with the final seven years a time of war including the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. I don’t find such a war in history.
Neither you nor I trust the secular dates for the pre Roman time frame. I think the secular dates are off for Cyrus.
For your theory to hold, you’ll have to adjust the dates for Cyrus by about 3/4 of a century. Do you have evidence other than your theory for that great a change in dates?
SteveMiller wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:44 pm
kwrandolph wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:46 pm
Aren’t you jumping to conclusions here?
Why would that not be a valid conclusion?
There’s no evidence that Cyrus ever made such a proclamation.
SteveMiller wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:44 pm Would not Daniel know about Cyrus' proclamation?
Of course he would, seeing that he was working in the King’s service. Yet Daniel never indicated that Cyrus’ proclamation included rebuilding Jerusalem. Nor did anyone else.
SteveMiller wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:44 pm Would Daniel not see that as the fulfillment of Jeremiah's 70 years concerning which Daniel prayed in Daniel chapter 9?
Notice Daniel made two mistakes: 1) he thought the ascent of Darius to the throne signaled the end of the 70 years, but we see that the 70 years actually ended when Cyrus replaced Darius, and 2) he assumed that the end of the 70 years would lead to the rebuilding of Jerusalem, when Jeremiah’s prophecy made no such claim.
SteveMiller wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:44 pm If I was Daniel I would see that as the word to return and to build Jerusalem.
Even though the rebuilding of Jerusalem wasn’t included in the royal decree?
SteveMiller wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:44 pm And what do you do with Gabriel's word to Daniel to "know and understand"? What would he know and understand?
For him to know and understand the prophecy given to him. Other than the word “sevens”, the rest of the prophecy is clear. It just doesn’t include all details.

While getting ready to post this message, I noticed that I had come back to the original question of what is the antecedent for והגביר because all the rest that I wrote is based on that question.

Karl W. Randolph.
Isaac Fried
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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by Isaac Fried »

Karl writes
While getting ready to post this message, I noticed that I had come back to the original question of what is the antecedent for והגביר because all the rest that I wrote is based on that question.
Some think that the "antecedent" of וְהִגְבִּיר in
וְהִגְבִּיר בְּרִית לָרַבִּים
is the Jewish people itself who in the face of the national calamities of the loss of independence, the disappearance of the monarchy, the loss of the priesthood, and the destruction of the temple with the rest of Jerusalem, still flocked with ever greater numbers, and with ever greater fervor and dedication, to the old covenant of Moses, regenerating and reshaping the faith in replacing altar offerings by prayer and piety, and priesthood mandates by Rabbinical rulings.

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Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant

Post by Jason Hare »

Isaac Fried wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:01 pm Some think that the "antecedent" of וְהִגְבִּיר in
וְהִגְבִּיר בְּרִית לָרַבִּים
is the Jewish people itself who in the face of the national calamities of the loss of independence, the disappearance of the monarchy, the loss of the priesthood, and the destruction of the temple with the rest of Jerusalem, still flocked with ever greater numbers, and with ever greater fervor and dedication, to the old covenant of Moses, regenerating and reshaping the faith in replacing altar offerings by prayer and piety, and priesthood mandates by Rabbinical rulings.
Again, this is a really interesting interpretation. So, you're saying that "he will strengthen the covenant" (וְהִגְבִּיר בְּרִית) is referring to the covenant of Moses and the reframing of Judaism in the rabbinic period?
Jason Hare
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