Exodus 10:3 until when

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Kenneth Greifer
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Exodus 10:3 until when

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Exodus 10:3 שמות
10:3וַיָּבֹ֨א מֹשֶׁ֣ה וְאַהֲרֹן֮ אֶל־פַּרְעֹה֒ וַיֹּאמְר֣וּ אֵלָ֗יו כֹּֽה־אָמַ֤ר יְהוָה֙ אֱלֹהֵ֣י הָֽעִבְרִ֔ים עַד־מָתַ֣י מֵאַ֔נְתָּ לֵעָנֹ֖ת מִפָּנָ֑י שַׁלַּ֥ח עַמִּ֖י וְיַֽעַבְדֻֽנִי׃

The Literal Standard Version (Bible hub)
3And Moses comes in—Aaron also—to Pharaoh, and they say to him, “Thus said YHWH, God of the Hebrews: Until when have you refused to be humbled at My presence? Send My people away, and they serve Me, 4for if you are refusing to send My people away, behold, tomorrow I am bringing in the locust into your border,

Usually, "until when" is used with present or future tense verbs (I know you don't call them that), but here it is used with a past tense verb. Does it make sense this way? It sounds ok, but a little funny to me.
Kenneth Greifer
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Exodus 10:3 until when

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

I also found "how long" written with a different word "when" used with the past tense in Exodus 16:28 and Habakkuk 1:2. I found "until when" or "how long" with the same words as Exodus 10:3 in Psalm 80:5.

Psalms 80:5 תהלים
80:5יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהִ֣ים צְבָא֑וֹת עַד־מָתַ֥י עָ֝שַׁ֗נְתָּ בִּתְפִלַּ֥ת עַמֶּֽךָ

Exodus 16:28 שמות
16:28וַיֹּ֥אמֶר יְהוָ֖ה אֶל־מֹשֶׁ֑ה עַד־אָ֙נָה֙ מֵֽאַנְתֶּ֔ם לִשְׁמֹ֥ר מִצְוֺתַ֖י וְתוֹרֹתָֽי׃

Habakkuk 1:2 חבקוק
1:2עַד־אָ֧נָה יְהוָ֛ה שִׁוַּ֖עְתִּי וְלֹ֣א תִשְׁמָ֑ע אֶזְעַ֥ק אֵלֶ֛יךָ חָמָ֖ס וְלֹ֥א תוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

I looked up "how long" and not "until when", so maybe they mean "how long" and "until when."
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Exodus 10:3 until when

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

I also found "how long" written with a different word "when" used with the past tense in Exodus 16:28 and Habakkuk 1:2. I found "until when" or "how long" with the same words as Exodus 10:3 in Psalm 80:5.

Psalms 80:5 תהלים
80:5יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהִ֣ים צְבָא֑וֹת עַד־מָתַ֥י עָ֝שַׁ֗נְתָּ בִּתְפִלַּ֥ת עַמֶּֽךָ

Psalms 80:6 תהלים
80:6הֶ֭אֱכַלְתָּם לֶ֣חֶם דִּמְעָ֑ה וַ֝תַּשְׁקֵ֗מוֹ בִּדְמָע֥וֹת שָׁלִֽישׁ׃

I think Psalm 80:5-6 might be a comment and not a question "until when...?", but "Until when You burned (gave off smoke)...You caused them to eat bread of tears..."
Kenneth Greifer
kwrandolph
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Re: Exodus 10:3 until when

Post by kwrandolph »

Kenneth Greifer wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 7:15 am Exodus 10:3 שמות
10:3וַיָּבֹ֨א מֹשֶׁ֣ה וְאַהֲרֹן֮ אֶל־פַּרְעֹה֒ וַיֹּאמְר֣וּ אֵלָ֗יו כֹּֽה־אָמַ֤ר יְהוָה֙ אֱלֹהֵ֣י הָֽעִבְרִ֔ים עַד־מָתַ֣י מֵאַ֔נְתָּ לֵעָנֹ֖ת מִפָּנָ֑י שַׁלַּ֥ח עַמִּ֖י וְיַֽעַבְדֻֽנִי׃

Usually, "until when" is used with present or future tense verbs (I know you don't call them that), but here it is used with a past tense verb. Does it make sense this way? It sounds ok, but a little funny to me.
Unlike modern Israeli Hebrew, Biblical Hebrew had no tenses. The Qatal verbs were used not only for past events, but also for future events and make up the majority of present events preserved in conversations in Tanakh. Likewise the Yiqtol verbs were used for past, present and future events. Therefore it’s incorrect to say that “until when” is used here with a “past tense verb”, because here it’s used with a Qatal verb referring to a future event

Karl W. Randolph.
Isaac Fried
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Re: Exodus 10:3 until when

Post by Isaac Fried »

Karl writes
Unlike modern Israeli Hebrew, Biblical Hebrew had no tenses.
There are no inherent tense markings in Hebrew, not in the Biblical and not in the presently spoken language. The Hebrew verb is but a root augmented by personal pronouns. Spoken Hebrew ("modern Israeli Hebrew") uses the same verbal forms as does biblical Hebrew, except, that being the practical language of the home, the school, the store, and the bank, its speakers are careful to distinguish between what they did and what they plan yet to do.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
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Jason Hare
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Re: Exodus 10:3 until when

Post by Jason Hare »

A modern Hebrew structure:

לפני יותר מחודש הוא אמר לי שהוא יבוא ליום ההולדת שלי, אבל מסתבר שהוא לא בא.‏
More than a month ago he told me that he would come to my birthday, but it turns out that he isn't coming. (or, didn't come)

It's obvious that אמר here means "he said/told." יבוא would normally be the "future," but it clearly isn't the future in this sentence, since my birthday is apparently the day on which I'm making this report. Rather, יבוא has its tense relative to where it is in my recounting of the event. It is relative to אמר "he said." When he told me, the birthday was still in the future. When I'm recounting it, it isn't in the future. The tense is relative to the "deictic center," as they say.

This is the case in both biblical and modern Hebrew. The form of the verb is dependent on what is being spoken of. It doesn't center itself on the time of the audience's hearing the communication.
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talmid56
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Re: Exodus 10:3 until when

Post by talmid56 »

In other words, the time relation of the verb form is determined by context, not by any marker in the verb form itself. Right?
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כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
--(E 84:11) 84:12 תהלים
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Jason Hare
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Re: Exodus 10:3 until when

Post by Jason Hare »

talmid56 wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 10:28 am In other words, the time relation of the verb form is determined by context, not by any marker in the verb form itself. Right?
Precisely. This is the case in modern Hebrew to the same extent as it is the case in biblical Hebrew. It doesn't mean that the language doesn't exhibit tense. It means that the verb form doesn't indicate simple past and future—but it can be figured out from the context.
Jason Hare
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Jonathan Beck
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Re: Exodus 10:3 until when

Post by Jonathan Beck »

talmid56 wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 10:28 am In other words, the time relation of the verb form is determined by context, not by any marker in the verb form itself. Right?
Well, except for the wayyiqtol form. But I know Karl will disagree with me on this.

90% of the time, it's a Past Narrative form. That's a pretty solid percentage.
talmid56
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Re: Exodus 10:3 until when

Post by talmid56 »

It's okay about Karl. ;) I agree about the wayyiqtol.
Dewayne Dulaney
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כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
--(E 84:11) 84:12 תהלים
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