Some Fun with Biblical Hebrew for Real Communication

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Pere
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:31 pm

Re: Some Fun with Biblical Hebrew for Real Communication

Post by Pere »

Pere wrote:
Mistake number 3.
Your word נלמד should be למדנו (pattern of דברנו, look at 1Sa 20:23).
Should it not?

Karl wrote:
Why?
(1 Samuel 20:23 has a different contextual structure than my sentence, therefore doesn’t give a counter example.)

-----------
Karl,
At writing נלמד did you intend to say 'we did learn'? Or rather 'we will learn'? Past or future?

Greetings from Barcelona.
Pere Porta
(Barcelona, Catalonia, Northeastern Spain)
kwrandolph
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Some Fun with Biblical Hebrew for Real Communication

Post by kwrandolph »

Pere:

In this discussion we are talking about Biblical Hebrew, not modern Hebrew.
Pere wrote:Pere wrote:
Mistake number 3.
Your word נלמד should be למדנו (pattern of דברנו, look at 1Sa 20:23).
Should it not?

Karl wrote:
Why?
(1 Samuel 20:23 has a different contextual structure than my sentence, therefore doesn’t give a counter example.)

-----------
Karl,
At writing נלמד did you intend to say 'we did learn'? Or rather 'we will learn'? Past or future?

Greetings from Barcelona.
In Biblical Hebrew, the conjugations do not refer to time, neither in the sense of tense (past or future) nor aspect (complete time, drawn out time, point time, etc.).

Rather the main use of the conjugations is primary verses secondary, continuation, in addition. That’s why there are so many Wayiqtols in narrative, they serve to show continuation of the story. Yiqtol is also used to show subjunctive and intent moods, an example being Exodus 5:2. So here I wanted to show that this is a continuation, not the start of a new idea, therefore the use of the Yiqtol conjugation.

Karl W. Randolph.
Pere
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:31 pm

Re: Some Fun with Biblical Hebrew for Real Communication

Post by Pere »

Yes.
But do you admit that in בראשית ברא אלהים (Gen 1:1) ברא clearly indicates a past?

Hearty,
Pere Porta
(Barcelona, Catalonia, Northeastern Spain)
kwrandolph
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Some Fun with Biblical Hebrew for Real Communication

Post by kwrandolph »

Pere:
Pere wrote:Yes.
But do you admit that in בראשית ברא אלהים (Gen 1:1) ברא clearly indicates a past?
No, I deny it. As far as I can see, there’s no linguistic basis for that claim.

The term בראשית indicates a past.

In a language where verbs don’t conjugate for time, if time is important to a message, it will be expressed in the context.

Karl W. Randolph.
talmid56
Posts: 230
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:02 am
Location: Carlisle, Arkansas, USA

Re: Some Fun with Biblical Hebrew for Real Communication

Post by talmid56 »

אלה הדברים כי כתבתי לצלם לבנימין.
אני רועה רבות בצלם. אני רועה פרה ובית.
ועבת אני רועה על־פני פרה. לא אני רעה צפור וצפרדע.
מה אתה רעה, אדם, ומה את רעהת, אשה

דּוּאֵין דּוּלֵינִי

Dewayne Dulaney
Dewayne Dulaney
דואיין דוליני

Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/

כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
--(E 84:11) 84:12 תהלים
kwrandolph
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Some Fun with Biblical Hebrew for Real Communication

Post by kwrandolph »

talmid56 wrote:אלה הדברים כי כתבתי לצלם לבנימין.
אני רועה רבות בצלם. אני רועה פרה ובית.
ועבת אני רועה על־פני פרה. לא אני רעה צפור וצפרדע.
מה אתה רעה, אדם, ומה את רעהת, אשה

דּוּאֵין דּוּלֵינִי

Dewayne Dulaney
First of all, to a person who doesn’t know modern Hebrew, this appears to be modern Hebrew. The default pattern for a present tense sentence is subject, verb in Qatal, object, as seen in the conversations recorded in 2 Kings 2–8, or where there is a negative and the subject is a pronoun, the subject is usually omitted. Now for specifics:

First sentence:

The word כי should be אשר.

Using צלם to refer to “picture” is creative, though in Genesis 1:26 is refers not to a formal image, rather a functional one where man is given the functions that represent God, namely his intelligence, ability to love, desire for justice, in short, the attitudes that civilize man.

However, לכתב ל means to write to the picture, as if the picture is the recipient of what you wrote. Possibly the only places where the phrase to write concerning someone or something are Psalms 40:8 and Job 13:26 where the phrase is כתב על.

The final word should not have the prefixed lamed. To say “Benjamin’s picture” would be צלם בנימין as a possessive.

Second sentence:

Look at the grammatical note above.

The verb רעה means “to feed”, or did you mean רוע which means “to sound forth” as with a trumpet? I doubt you meant רעע “to be displeasing or act in a displeasing manner”. However, I think you meant ראה “to look”, when combined with the grammatical note above would make אני ראיתי.

Should I continue?

Karl W. Randolph.
Isaac Fried
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: Some Fun with Biblical Hebrew for Real Communication

Post by Isaac Fried »

Pere, I am surprised that you did not remember that there are no question marks in pidgin Assyrian, only periods and commas.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
talmid56
Posts: 230
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:02 am
Location: Carlisle, Arkansas, USA

Re: Some Fun with Biblical Hebrew for Real Communication

Post by talmid56 »

Karl,

Thanks for looking at my post. I am working on a response. After I post it, you are welcome to offer more corrections to the first one.

Dewayne Dulaney
Dewayne Dulaney
דואיין דוליני

Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/

כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
--(E 84:11) 84:12 תהלים
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Ben Putnam
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:08 am

Re: Some Fun with Biblical Hebrew for Real Communication

Post by Ben Putnam »

דואין
אני מודה לך כי ענית
הבנתי הדברים אשר דברת
Ben Putnam
User avatar
Ben Putnam
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:08 am

Re: Some Fun with Biblical Hebrew for Real Communication

Post by Ben Putnam »

karl katav
Karl Randolph wrote:The verb רעה means “to feed”, or did you mean רוע which means “to sound forth” as with a trumpet? I doubt you meant רעע “to be displeasing or act in a displeasing manner”. However, I think you meant ראה “to look”, when combined with the grammatical note above would make אני ראיתי.
Karl, did you mean לרעות, להריע, להרע, and לראות?
Ben Putnam
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