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Re: A Case against Emphasizing Vowel Pointing when Teaching BH

Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:54 pm
by Jason Hare
kwrandolph wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:00 pm My conclusion is that the Masoretic points in this verse are demonstrably wrong as far as meaning is concerned.
Demonstrably wrong? That is nonsense. It reads with the points as a vocative (יִרְאֵי יְהוָה — you who fear Yahweh) and an imperative (בִּטְחוּ בַיהוָה — trust in Yahweh). There's nothing demonstrably wrong about that. Granted, both the LXX and the Vulgate transate בטחו as if it were perfect rather than imperative, which would take יִרְאֵי יְהוָה as the subject rather than as vocative, but there is nothing "demonstrably wrong" about reading it as pointed. It's a difference of pointing, and either is a perfectly valid possibility.

BHS note:
𝔊(𝔖 Hier) ἤλπισαν = בָּטְחוּ cf 9b

יִ֭שְׂרָאֵל בְּטַ֣ח בַּיהוָ֑ה עֶזְרָ֖ם וּמָגִנָּ֣ם הֽוּא׃
בֵּ֣ית אַ֭הֲרֹן בִּטְח֣וּ בַיהוָ֑ה עֶזְרָ֖ם וּמָגִנָּ֣ם הֽוּא׃
יִרְאֵ֣י יְ֭הוָה בִּטְח֣וּ בַיהוָ֑ה עֶזְרָ֖ם וּמָגִנָּ֣ם הֽוּא׃
יְהוָה֮ זְכָרָ֪נוּ יְבָ֫רֵ֥ךְ יְ֭בָרֵךְ אֶת־בֵּ֣ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְ֝בָרֵ֗ךְ אֶת־בֵּ֥ית אַהֲרֹֽן׃
יְ֭בָרֵךְ יִרְאֵ֣י יְהוָ֑ה הַ֝קְּטַנִּ֗ים עִם־הַגְּדֹלִֽים׃


Oh Israel, trust in Yahweh—he is their help and their shield.
Oh house of Aaron, trust in Yahweh—he is their help and shield.
Oh you who fear Yahweh, trust in Yahweh—he is their help and shield.
Yahweh has remembered us, he will bless [us].
He will bless the house of Israel.
He will bless the house of Aaron.
He will bless those who fear Yahweh, the small with the great.


I see no problem with reading it this way at all. Nothing here is "demonstrably wrong."

Re: A Case against Emphasizing Vowel Pointing when Teaching BH

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:27 pm
by kwrandolph
Jason Hare wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:49 pm It is indeed a substantive adjective (an adjective that is being made to stand in for a noun). It is not a noun.
Take the old Duck test—if it swims like a duck, flies like a duck, waddles like a dusk, quacks like a duck, then it’s a duck.

Here we have a word that acts like a noun, has the form of a noun, fits the syntax as a noun, etc. therefore it’s a noun.

The only reason you claim that it’s not a noun is because of the Masoretic points. They’re wrong in other places, so why not here too?

Karl W. Randolph.

Re: A Case against Emphasizing Vowel Pointing when Teaching BH

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:29 am
by Jason Hare
kwrandolph wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:27 pm
Jason Hare wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:49 pm It is indeed a substantive adjective (an adjective that is being made to stand in for a noun). It is not a noun.
Take the old Duck test—if it swims like a duck, flies like a duck, waddles like a dusk, quacks like a duck, then it’s a duck.

Here we have a word that acts like a noun, has the form of a noun, fits the syntax as a noun, etc. therefore it’s a noun.

The only reason you claim that it’s not a noun is because of the Masoretic points. They’re wrong in other places, so why not here too?

Karl W. Randolph.
Adjectives often behave like nouns. "The good, the bad, and the ugly" is the classic example. This is the substantive use of adjectives. It doesn't mean that adjectives are nouns, whatever smelly duck you call to mind.

Re: A Case against Emphasizing Vowel Pointing when Teaching BH

Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:47 pm
by kwrandolph
Jason Hare wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:54 pm
kwrandolph wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:00 pm My conclusion is that the Masoretic points in this verse are demonstrably wrong as far as meaning is concerned.
Demonstrably wrong? That is nonsense. It reads with the points as a vocative (יִרְאֵי יְהוָה — you who fear Yahweh) and an imperative (בִּטְחוּ בַיהוָה — trust in Yahweh).
Without the points, יראי reads as a plural masculine noun in construct.

The verb בטחו could be an imperative, and I considered that. In verses 2–8 the verb בטח is used as a descriptive, not as an imperative. Then considering that the יראי יהוה by definition already בטחו ביהוה, leads to the conclusion that the verbal use in this verse, as well as the previous two verses, is also descriptive providing a contrast to the previous verses.
Jason Hare wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:54 pm There's nothing demonstrably wrong about that. Granted, both the LXX and the Vulgate transate בטחו as if it were perfect rather than imperative, which would take יִרְאֵי יְהוָה as the subject rather than as vocative, but there is nothing "demonstrably wrong" about reading it as pointed. It's a difference of pointing, and either is a perfectly valid possibility.
See above.
Jason Hare wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:54 pm BHS note:
𝔊(𝔖 Hier) ἤλπισαν = בָּטְחוּ cf 9b

יִ֭שְׂרָאֵל בְּטַ֣ח בַּיהוָ֑ה עֶזְרָ֖ם וּמָגִנָּ֣ם הֽוּא׃
בֵּ֣ית אַ֭הֲרֹן בִּטְח֣וּ בַיהוָ֑ה עֶזְרָ֖ם וּמָגִנָּ֣ם הֽוּא׃
יִרְאֵ֣י יְ֭הוָה בִּטְח֣וּ בַיהוָ֑ה עֶזְרָ֖ם וּמָגִנָּ֣ם הֽוּא׃
יְהוָה֮ זְכָרָ֪נוּ יְבָ֫רֵ֥ךְ יְ֭בָרֵךְ אֶת־בֵּ֣ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְ֝בָרֵ֗ךְ אֶת־בֵּ֥ית אַהֲרֹֽן׃
יְ֭בָרֵךְ יִרְאֵ֣י יְהוָ֑ה הַ֝קְּטַנִּ֗ים עִם־הַגְּדֹלִֽים׃


Oh Israel, trust in Yahweh—he is their help and their shield.
Oh house of Aaron, trust in Yahweh—he is their help and shield.
Oh you who fear Yahweh, trust in Yahweh—he is their help and shield.
Yahweh has remembered us, he will bless [us].
He will bless the house of Israel.
He will bless the house of Aaron.
He will bless those who fear Yahweh, the small with the great.


I see no problem with reading it this way at all. Nothing here is "demonstrably wrong."
Here’s a place where I see you twisting yourself into a pretzel in order to defend the Masoretic points.

Karl W. Randolph.

Re: A Case against Emphasizing Vowel Pointing when Teaching BH

Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:29 am
by Jason Hare
Good grief. Please forgive me if I just don't respond to this nonsense.