עִדַּן הַקּוֹר֫וֹנָה

A forum for discussion about writing in ancient Hebrew, and for practicing writing in Hebrew. If you post in this forum, you are inviting people to critique what you have written and suggest ways to improve it.

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Jason Hare
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Re: עִדַּן הַקּוֹר֫וֹנָה

Post by Jason Hare »

kwrandolph wrote:Ps: I looked up your original post to B-Hebrew when you were a second semester student of Hebrew. The same year that you were a first year student, I had already read Tanakh through, cover to cover, 10+ times in Hebrew. In the past 20 years, how many times have you read Tanakh through cover to cover in Hebrew?
I guess that settles what you’ve been attempting to establish this whole time. I’m inexperienced with and ignorant of the biblical text. I guess I lost this peeing contest. Good thing I wasn’t participating from the get-to.

I have to think that this is another fallacy of relevance, since our interactions on this forum need to focus on our use of the language, not on how many times we’ve read through the Bible from cover to cover. I’ve read along with the weekly parashah with the synagogue for several years, and I’ve read extended portions of books. There are books that I’ve read again and again, books that I read in a single sitting (such as the Megillot), books that I have probably never read. I don’t see how reading it from cover to cover is the contest that determines our competence in the language.
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Re: עִדַּן הַקּוֹר֫וֹנָה

Post by Kirk Lowery »

Karl,

Let's not compare one another's background and experience here. I think we all agree that the argument "I've studied Hebrew more/better than you, so I'm right" is not the path to knowledge or enlightenment. Like the Apostle Paul, we've all got bragging rights. We don't want to descend into a situation of ad hominem dismissing one another's accomplishments or lack thereof.

Let our arguments be separate from ourselves and stand on their own merits.

Thanks!

Blessings,
Kirk
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Re: עִדַּן הַקּוֹר֫וֹנָה

Post by Jason Hare »

וַיְהִי בִימֵי מַגֵּפַת הַקּוֹר֫וֹנָה וָאֵשֵׁב זְמַן רַב בְּבֵיתִי תַּ֫חַת עֲרֵמַת סְפָרִים כַּיֹּשֵׁב בִּכְלוּב בְּלִי חֲבֵרִים וּבְלִי תִקְוָה׃ וָאֶשְׁמַע בַּיָּמִים הָהֵ֫מָּה קוֹל תִּקְוָה וְקוֹל שָׂשׂוֹן אֶת־קוֹל רֹאשׁ מֶמְשֶׁ֫לֶת יִשְׂרָאֵל׃ וַיְדַבֵּר אָדוֹן נְתַנְיָ֫הוּ אֶל־עַם־אַרְצוֹ וַיֹּ֫אמֶר אֲלֵיהֶם עַמִּי הַצַּיְתָן וְהַנֶּאֱמָן׃ לָכֶם אָנֹכִי רֹאשׁ מֶמְשַׁלְתְּכֶם אֲסִיר תּוֹדָה עַל־אֲשֶׁר שְׁמַעְתֶּם בִּפְקֻדוֹתֵ֫ינוּ וּבְמִצְוֺתֵ֫ינוּ עֲלֵיכֶם לְהִשָׁאֵר בְּבָֽתֵּיכֶם וְלִשְׁמֹר עַל־מֶרְחָק אִישׁ מֵרֵעוֹ׃ כַּכָּתוּב בְּסִפְרֵי קָדְשֵׁ֫נוּ «צִדְקַת תָּמִים תְּיַשֵּׁר דַּרְכּוֹ» (מִשְׁלֵי י״א,ה׳) וְשׁוּב «צִדְקַת יְשָׁרִים תַּצִּילֵם» (שָׁם פָּסוּק ו׳)׃ יִתֵּן יהוה וְנֶחֱשַׁ֫בְנוּ לִתְמִימִים וִישָׁרִים בְּיָמֵ֫ינוּ הָרָעִים וְהִצִּילַ֫תְנוּ צִדְקָתֵ֫נוּ מִכֹּחוֹת הַמָּ֫וֶת׃
צַיְתָן | Mod. Heb., meaning “obedient.”

נֶאֱמָן | Niph. Part., meaning “faithful.”
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Re: עִדַּן הַקּוֹר֫וֹנָה

Post by kwrandolph »

I don’t read Tanakh in order to learn and analyze the language, I merely read it because it’s God’s Word.

The reason I emphasize reading the text, is because it’s in that way that one learns what God wants us to know. A side effect is that in that way one also learns the language.

Back in the ibiblio days, we had a guy swagger into this forum, PhD and influential, who made mistake after mistake concerning Biblical Hebrew language. Like Jason, he lives in Israel and speaks modern Israeli Hebrew daily. He left this forum when it was pointed out that the reason he made so many mistakes was because he didn’t know Tanakh. That’s one reason why I emphasize knowing Tanakh over academic analysis of the language.

Even though I have read Tanakh through many times (I’ve lost count), I read almost every day because I’m being reminded of things I’ve forgotten, and am learning things that I hadn’t noticed before. So I consider myself as a student, not as a great scholar. The reason I mention reading time after time, is not to boast myself, rather to emphasize the need for and to encourage everyone to read Tanakh over and over again. If I can do it, then those who have better academic backgrounds than I can do better.

Oh, it was also to answer Jason’s claim that he didn’t think I could understand Biblical Hebrew.

Karl W. Randolph.
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Re: עִדַּן הַקּוֹר֫וֹנָה

Post by ducky »

Hi Jason, I just noticed your notes on your last post.
The word ציתן is not Modern - it was already written in the Talmudic period.

The root itself is found in Arabic and Aramaic, And Syriac-Aramaic.
In Arabic, it is about voice or making a sound (scream).
In Aramaic is to listen to someone (and Hebrew was using the Aramaic way).

And I read a note in one dictionary (which I didn't find this note anywhere else probably because they don't agree) which point to this root also in the bible in the meaning of scream.
It is on Ezekiel 26:18
עַתָּה יֶחְרְדוּ הָאִיִּן יוֹם מַפַּלְתֵּךְ וְנִבְהֲלוּ הָאִיִּים אֲשֶׁר בַּיָּם מִצֵּאתֵךְ
as צאתך means actually a "the sound (of fall)"

in verse 15 it says:
הֲלֹא מִקּוֹל מַפַּלְתֵּךְ בֶּאֱנֹק חָלָל בֵּהָרֵג הֶרֶג בְּתוֹכֵךְ יִרְעֲשׁוּ הָאִיִּים

And מפלתך is written also in verse 18
so maybe the מצאתך comes as parallel to מפלתך in the meaning of קול מפלתך

***
Or, that verse 18
עַתָּה יֶחְרְדוּ הָאִיִּן יוֹם מַפַּלְתֵּךְ וְנִבְהֲלוּ הָאִיִּים אֲשֶׁר בַּיָּם מִצֵּאתֵךְ

the word צאתך could be understood with the "listening/hearing" meaning as שמועתך/שמועה or שֵמַע/שִמְעֵךְ
such as Jer. 6:24 (שֵמַע)
שָׁמַע מֶלֶךְ בָּבֶל אֶת שִׁמְעָם וְרָפוּ יָדָיו

or Jer. 49:23 (שמועה)
כִּי שְׁמֻעָה רָעָה שָׁמְעוּ נָמֹגוּ

Which these words come in the same context of meaning.

****
The common understanding of this צאתך is from יצא as talking about the "leaving" of the people (to the sea and exile).

Anyway, all I wanted to say is that this word is not modern.
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Re: עִדַּן הַקּוֹר֫וֹנָה

Post by Jason Hare »

ducky wrote:Anyway, all I wanted to say is that this word is not modern.
:lol:
Thanks for that! :)

I don't have access to great fantastic historical dictionaries. I just check if it's in the Bible's lexical stock and then associate non-biblical to modern. What I really mean is "post-biblical Hebrew." Simplistic, I know, but I don't have access right now to anything beyond that.
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Re: עִדַּן הַקּוֹר֫וֹנָה

Post by Jason Hare »

kwrandolph wrote:Oh, it was also to answer Jason’s claim that he didn’t think I could understand Biblical Hebrew.
I think you've said about ten times on this thread alone that I don't know biblical Hebrew because modern Hebrew has crept in and influenced my ability to read the text. On the contrary, I looked back through the thread and cannot locate where I said that you don't understand the language of the Bible—and I cannot imagine saying that, since I am completely convinced that you've read the Bible a million times in Hebrew. Why would I claim that you can't understand biblical Hebrew? That completely escapes me.

Anyway, please... back to the topic of the thread. Are you interested in using this subforum to exchange in biblical Hebrew or to attempt to? You don't have to, of course. That's just the purpose of this subforum: Hebrew Composition.
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Re: עִדַּן הַקּוֹר֫וֹנָה

Post by kwrandolph »

Jason Hare wrote:I think you've said about ten times on this thread alone that I don't know biblical Hebrew because modern Hebrew has crept in and influenced my ability to read the text.
Please don’t make a straw man argument, I never said that you “don't know biblical Hebrew”, rather I claim that you have the well-known curse of cross-language corruption that especially affects those trying to speak close cognate languages.

There was a report that I read many years ago that claimed that it’s impossible for a modern person, speaking natively modern English, to write Shakespearian English. Scholars may get close, but there’s always a tweak here, a twinge there, that gives it away that the document is modern made by someone archaizing English.

The same is true for someone whose main language is modern Israeli Hebrew—no matter how hard he tries, it’s impossible for him to write pure Biblical Hebrew. The modern thinks first in modern Israeli Hebrew, then needs to translate his thoughts into Biblical Hebrew. The modern phraseology sounds so natural that even when he uses the correct Biblical Hebrew words, he may not recognize that the ancient Biblical era Hebrew speaker would have used different words to express the same idea.
Jason Hare wrote:On the contrary, I looked back through the thread and cannot locate where I said that you don't understand the language of the Bible—and I cannot imagine saying that, since I am completely convinced that you've read the Bible a million times in Hebrew. Why would I claim that you can't understand biblical Hebrew?
Let me quote you,
Jason Hare wrote:Given how different our perspectives are with regard to Hebrew, I don't think you'd get what I was pointing out if I posted two paragraphs of Hebrew text at you.
If that doesn’t mean in its context that you claimed that I don’t know Biblical Hebrew, what does it mean? (The context was quoting Bible passages.)

If you meant modern Israeli Hebrew, well … duh … it’s a very different language and I readily admit that I don’t know it.
Jason Hare wrote:That completely escapes me.
It escapes me too.
Jason Hare wrote:Anyway, please... back to the topic of the thread. Are you interested in using this subforum to exchange in biblical Hebrew or to attempt to? You don't have to, of course. That's just the purpose of this subforum: Hebrew Composition.
Yesterday I finished reading Nehemiah, again, and the Hebrew he used has a different feel to it, different from, set’s see, Isaiah, Jeremiah and other pre-exile authors. His writing has the feel of a foreigner trying to speak a learned language, who does a good job of it, yet has an accent that he can’t get rid of it. I can’t put my finger on it, but the feel is there.

No, I decided that I’d better not participate in this exercise. I found that even just reading your attempts was corrupting my feel for Biblical Hebrew. It’s not your fault. It’s just the milieu in which you live and work would stump even the greatest expert who ever lived, and I am not that expert.
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Re: עִדַּן הַקּוֹר֫וֹנָה

Post by Jason Hare »

kwrandolph wrote:Let me quote you,
Jason Hare wrote:Given how different our perspectives are with regard to Hebrew, I don't think you'd get what I was pointing out if I posted two paragraphs of Hebrew text at you.
If that doesn’t mean in its context that you claimed that I don’t know Biblical Hebrew, what does it mean? (The context was quoting Bible passages.)
I said specifically what I meant: if I quote long passages in Hebrew, you will not see what I'm trying to stress from the passage. It's obvious that reading large passages and getting the sense of them is more natural in your native tongue (as it is for me in mine). That doesn't mean that you cannot read and understand biblical Hebrew. I never made that claim. It was about you understanding what I was trying to demonstrate in the quotation.
kwrandolph wrote:Yesterday I finished reading Nehemiah, again, and the Hebrew he used has a different feel to it, different from, set’s see, Isaiah, Jeremiah and other pre-exile authors. His writing has the feel of a foreigner trying to speak a learned language, who does a good job of it, yet has an accent that he can’t get rid of it. I can’t put my finger on it, but the feel is there.
:?
kwrandolph wrote:No, I decided that I’d better not participate in this exercise. I found that even just reading your attempts was corrupting my feel for Biblical Hebrew. It’s not your fault. It’s just the milieu in which you live and work would stump even the greatest expert who ever lived, and I am not that expert.
That's fine. I'm not trying to force you to participate in something that would damage your knowledge and feelings with regard to biblical Hebrew. I don't think it's as bad as you would have me or us believe, but you're free to your opinion. Good luck in your future endeavors.
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Re: עִדַּן הַקּוֹר֫וֹנָה

Post by Jonathan Beck »

Please don’t make a straw man argument, I never said that you “don't know biblical Hebrew”, rather I claim that you have the well-known curse of cross-language corruption that especially affects those trying to speak close cognate languages.
Well-known curse? Maybe you don't know how the modern Israeli language was formed in the first place.

When Israel became a state, they wanted to make their own unique language. They used biblical Hebrew as the base, re-organize the grammar a bit in order to modernize it, and added (i.e., they made up) words, since there isn't any way, for instance, to say "I would like a hamburger at the restaurant" in biblical Hebrew.

It's not a curse. It's the evolution of language.

Yesterday I finished reading Nehemiah, again, and the Hebrew he used has a different feel to it, different from, set’s see, Isaiah, Jeremiah and other pre-exile authors. His writing has the feel of a foreigner trying to speak a learned language, who does a good job of it, yet has an accent that he can’t get rid of it. I can’t put my finger on it, but the feel is there.
The issue isn't that Nehemiah doesn't know the Hebrew language; the issue is later Hebrew. By the time of its writing, the language has evolved. This happens with "any" language, be it ancient or modern.
No, I decided that I’d better not participate in this exercise. I found that even just reading your attempts was corrupting my feel for Biblical Hebrew. It’s not your fault. It’s just the milieu in which you live and work would stump even the greatest expert who ever lived, and I am not that expert.
The most recent exercise that Jason wrote was written in good Biblical Hebrew. In any case, like you, I am a biblical Hebrew purist. So it would be interesting to compare work. I hope you join us!

Blessings,

Jonathan
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