Corrected Q & A Exercise on Ex. 2:23-25

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talmid56
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Location: Carlisle, Arkansas, USA

Corrected Q & A Exercise on Ex. 2:23-25

Post by talmid56 »

Again, I appreciate everyone’s input. I can see I need to review my verb paradigms, as well as some things about the modal uses of verbs. Karl, I briefly read over the grammar section in your dictionary. I see you have a discussion there about the modal uses, so I will review that.

In my first Hebrew course, we had virtually no Hebrew composition practice. We did a few English to Hebrew translation exercises (Mansoor’s book Biblical Hebrew Step by Step, Volume 1). Most of the writing, however, was Hebrew to English translation exercises, which is of no help in learning to write Hebrew. As the approach was strictly grammar-translation, however, the instructor saw no need in teaching any Hebrew composition. The other three courses were Hebrew reading with Hebrew to English translating, so again, no opportunity to learn composition.

Nonetheless, I feel the effort was valuable and that the concept of such an exercise is valid. I will continue making the effort, while doing more review of the grammar and vocabulary, as needed. And, of course, asking for corrections and suggestions. I feel sure that with more practice and review, I will get better at it. I do plan to practice in our composition forum, which will help, no doubt.

Now, a few more remarks before I present the revised exercise and answers. First, I decided to keep the wording for “questions and answers”. It is clear from Gen. 32:18 that the verb, שאל, can be used to mean “ask a question” in the Qal. Although the noun is not attested in that sense, it doesn’t seem much of a stretch to use it for “question”. I note the Hebrew textbook Jason gave the exercise from uses the noun in that sense, so I’m in good company. Nice to see the author also believes in the value of interactive use of BH, as well.

I have accepted all the suggested corrections to the questions and answers, including the affirmative response ones with interrogative he. Jason’s suggested caveat statement is a good one, though. As for the attested use of כן, “indeed” and “so”, since they are used in affirmative statements, seems to me there is little semantic difference in that and saying “yes”. However, since there is attestation for Karl’s suggestion of repeating the verb or subject (I saw this mentioned elsewhere, as well), I’ve corrected per his suggestion.

Okay, then. Here is the corrected exercise, with corrected answers.

שמות ב

ידע אלהים את בני ישראל מן העבדה

23 וַיְהִי֩ בַיָּמִ֨ים הָֽרַבִּ֜ים הָהֵ֗ם וַיָּ֙מָת֙ מֶ֣לֶךְ מִצְרַ֔יִם וַיֵּאָנְח֧וּ בְנֵֽי־יִשְׂרָאֵ֛ל מִן־הָעֲבֹדָ֖ה וַיִּזְעָ֑קוּ וַתַּ֧עַל שַׁוְעָתָ֛ם
אֶל־הָאֱלֹהִ֖ים מִן־הָעֲבֹדָֽה׃
24 וַיִּשְׁמַ֥ע אֱלֹהִ֖ים אֶת־נַאֲקָתָ֑ם וַיִּזְכֹּ֤ר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶת־בְּרִית֔וֹ אֶת־אַבְרָהָ֖ם אֶת־יִצְחָ֥ק וְאֶֽת־יַעֲקֹֽב׃
25 וַיַּ֥רְא אֱלֹהִ֖ים אֶת־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל וַיֵּ֖דַע אֱלֹהִֽים׃ ס

שאלות ותשבת

פסק 23

1.
מי מת?
מלך מצרים
2.
מה עשו בני ישראל?
אנחו.
3.
למה נאנחו?
מן העבדה
4.
למי עלתה שועתם?
אל האלהים
5.
למה עלתה שועתם?
מן העבדה
6.
העלתה אל האלהים?
עלתה.

פסק 24
1.
השמע אלהים?
שמע.
2.
מה שמע אלהים?
שמע את נאקתם.
3.
מי זכר?
זכר אלהים.

4.
מה זכר?
זכר את בריתו.
5.
את ברית אלהים?
את אברהם, את יצחק, ואת יעקב.

פסק 25

1.
מי ראה?
ראה אלהים.
2.
מי ראה אלהים?
ראה את בני ישראל.
3.
ומה עשה אלהים?
ידע אלהים.
4.
חידע אלהים?
ידע.
Dewayne Dulaney
דואיין דוליני

Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/

כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
--(E 84:11) 84:12 תהלים
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Jason Hare
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Re: Corrected Q & A Exercise on Ex. 2:23-25

Post by Jason Hare »

I wasn't aware that you were necessarily looking for corrections on all of the questions. I didn't go through this systematically even now, so I might have missed some things. These are my opinions; Karl will probably disagree at many points, but I don't know. Remember: I spend a lot of time reading the Bible in Hebrew, but I still filter Hebrew through the modern language (since it is more dominant in my mind). If you find that biblical Hebrew is different from what my natural intuition is, that's fine. However, give consideration to what I'm saying and make adjustments as you have evidence to the contrary.
talmid56 wrote:
ידע אלהים את בני ישראל מן העבדה
<snip>
שאלות ותשבת
It's a good idea to use matres lectionis for historic long vowels, especially when you're not writing with context (as in, full prose). Thus, מן העבודה and תשובות. If you're using vowel points, feel free to write defectively (מִן הָעֲבֹדָה and תְּשֻׁבֹת). It still isn't preferable, I think, but at least it isn't ambiguous. Having said that, it looks like only in the Chronicles (perhaps the latest books of the Tanach) do we see the vav used in avodah. I'd certainly use a vav in פָּסוּק "verse," which is necessarily a post-biblical term. If you don't have the vav, it lends itself to פָּסַק and פֶּסֶק.
talmid56 wrote:
2.
מה עשו בני ישראל?
אנחו.
As I mentioned before, the verb here is niphal. The answer would be בני ישראל נֶאֶנְחוּ (see Isaiah 24:7 for this specific form in use: אָבַ֥ל תִּיר֖וֹשׁ אֻמְלְלָה־גָ֑פֶן נֶאֶנְח֖וּ כָּל־שִׂמְחֵי־לֵֽב׃).
talmid56 wrote:
6.
העלתה אל האלהים?
עלתה.
I'd include the subject here: העלתה שועתם אל האלהים. In all cases, if you're looking for biblical style (why else would you leave the matres lectionis off?), you should not include question marks, since these do not appear in the biblical text.
talmid56 wrote:
1.
מי ראה?
ראה אלהים.
Given that אלהים is the answer the question, it is in some way "emphasized." It should come first in the response.
מי ראה? אלהים ראה.
talmid56 wrote:
4.
מה זכר?
זכר את בריתו.
It's unnatural to use a 3ms verb without a subject. It should מה הוא זכר and הוא זכר את בריתו.
talmid56 wrote:
2.
מי ראה אלהים?
ראה את בני ישראל.
As you have phrased the question, it would mean "Who saw God?". I think you meant "Whom did God see?", which would be את מי ראה אלהים with the DDOM before the interrogative.
talmid56 wrote:
3.
ומה עשה אלהים?
ידע אלהים.
Do you really think that knowing is an action? Perhaps you could make this another yes/no question. It doesn't make sense to say "What did God do?" and answer it with "God knew." That isn't an action. It's the result of encountering a fact. You cannot choose to know or not to know once you've encountering information. It's a natural brain state.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian
Jemoh66
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Re: Corrected Q & A Exercise on Ex. 2:23-25

Post by Jemoh66 »

talmid56 wrote:
1.
מי ראה?
ראה אלהים.

Given that אלהים is the answer the question, it is in some way "emphasized." It should come first in the response.
מי ראה? אלהים ראה.
Even more biblical sounding might be
אלהים הוא ראה
This feels to me like saying, God, he’s the one who has seen.
Jonathan E Mohler
Studying for a MA in Intercultural Studies
Baptist Bible Theological Seminary
ducky
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Re: Corrected Q & A Exercise on Ex. 2:23-25

Post by ducky »

I don't hear styles as אלהים הוא ראה or anything like that
And also in the bible, it is not like that

If there is a usage of using הוא (or היא, הם and so on) after the subject, it would be before a noun.
and then the הוא would be as a copula.
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Jason Hare
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Re: Corrected Q & A Exercise on Ex. 2:23-25

Post by Jason Hare »

ducky wrote:I don't hear styles as אלהים הוא ראה or anything like that
And also in the bible, it is not like that

If there is a usage of using הוא (or היא, הם and so on) after the subject, it would be before a noun.
and then the הוא would be as a copula.
Absolutely. I'm not sure what was going on in my mind. Maybe I was thinking אלהים הוא זה שרואה, thinking of a participial use. I stay up too late every day.
Jason Hare
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www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian
ducky
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Re: Corrected Q & A Exercise on Ex. 2:23-25

Post by ducky »

Yes. I was wondering about that too, and I didn't understand at first why you wrote that.
and you're right about זה שרואה which comes to emphasize.
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talmid56
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Re: Corrected Q & A Exercise on Ex. 2:23-25

Post by talmid56 »

Thanks for the further corrections, guys. I will look them over and work on them asap. I appreciate the time you took to help. I want to grow in this skill, and your input is of great assistance.
Dewayne Dulaney
דואיין דוליני

Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/

כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
--(E 84:11) 84:12 תהלים
talmid56
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Location: Carlisle, Arkansas, USA

Re: Corrected Q & A Exercise on Ex. 2:23-25

Post by talmid56 »

I now have inserted the additional corrections from Jason, except for his last one. I think a correction is needed there, but need some additional advice on how to proceed.

Jason wrote:
talmid56 wrote:
3.
ומה עשה אלהים?
ידע אלהים.

Do you really think that knowing is an action? Perhaps you could make this another yes/no question. It doesn't make sense to say "What did God do?" and answer it with "God knew." That isn't an action. It's the result of encountering a fact. You cannot choose to know or not to know once you've encountering information. It's a natural brain state.
Jason, I think I went that way with the question because I was thinking of ידע in the sense of "care about", "be concerned with", as in Psa. 1:6. However, an emotional (or spiritual) response doesn't coordinate well with an action verb either. Since the following question is already a yes/no question, I might take a different approach to fixing #3. How about asking “What happened next” instead? Would מה היה אחר זה work to express this? Or, is there a better way?

As for the matres lectionis, I added all those I saw were needed, including in the name יעקוב. If I missed any, feel free to point them out. (I wasn’t sure, for example, if any using א were needed.)
Dewayne Dulaney
דואיין דוליני

Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/

כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
--(E 84:11) 84:12 תהלים
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Jason Hare
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Re: Corrected Q & A Exercise on Ex. 2:23-25

Post by Jason Hare »

But number 2 still needs to be made into a niphal (נאנחו). You've left it as if it were qal (אנחו).
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian
talmid56
Posts: 178
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:02 am
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Re: Corrected Q & A Exercise on Ex. 2:23-25

Post by talmid56 »

Well, I corrected it on the copy on my computer. I just haven't uploaded the corrected copy here. Will do so now.
Dewayne Dulaney
דואיין דוליני

Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/

כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
--(E 84:11) 84:12 תהלים
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