Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

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Jonathan Beck
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Post by Jonathan Beck »

Staying on top of things.
Spoiler: show
וַיִּקְרָא הַנָּבִיא אֶל־הָעָם אֲשֶׁר הִתְקַבְּצוּ עַל־הָהָר וַיֹּאמֶר בַּחֲרוּ אַתֶּם הַיּוֹם הַזֶּה בֵין יהוה וּבֵן אֱלֹהֵי כְּנַעַן׃
Last edited by Jonathan Beck on Fri May 22, 2020 1:16 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Jason Hare
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Post by Jason Hare »

(4) The prophet called unto the people who had gathered together upon the mountain and he said: ‘Choose ye this day between the Lord and (between) the gods of Canaan’.
My submission:
Spoiler: show
(4) וַיִּקְרָא הַנָּבִיא אֶל־הָעָם אֲשֶׁר הִתְאַסְפוּ עַל־הָהָר וַיֹּאמַר בַּחֲרוּ הַיּוֹם בֵּין־יהוה וּבֵין אֱלֹהֵי כְנַ֫עַן׃
Jason Hare
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Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian
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Jason Hare
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Post by Jason Hare »

kwrandolph wrote:[right]יצא הכהן העיר ויברך את אברהם ויאמר ברוך אתה ליהוה אשר מגן צריך בידך ותן לי הנפש והרכש קח לך[/right]
I was just wondering about the word מגן in the אשר phrase [אשר מגן צריך בידך]. Did you mean "protect"? Why not נתן?

I assume that צריך means צָרֶ֫יךָ over against אֹיְבֶ֫יךָ. I think they're pretty much synonymous, so either can be used.
Jason Hare
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Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

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kwrandolph
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Post by kwrandolph »

Jason Hare wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:[right]יצא הכהן העיר ויברך את אברהם ויאמר ברוך אתה ליהוה אשר מגן צריך בידך ותן לי הנפש והרכש קח לך[/right]
I was just wondering about the word מגן in the אשר phrase [אשר מגן צריך בידך]. Did you mean "protect"? Why not נתן?
The verb מגן according to the concordance I used, is found only three times in Tanakh. Its meaning is “to deliver” in this case “to deliver into your hands”.

The noun מגן comes from the root גנן “to protect”.
Jason Hare wrote:I assume that צריך means צָרֶ֫יךָ over against אֹיְבֶ֫יךָ. I think they're pretty much synonymous, so either can be used.
Agreed.

Karl W. Randolph.
kwrandolph
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Post by kwrandolph »

The prophet called unto the people who had gathered together upon the mountain and he said: ‘Choose ye this day between the Lord and (between) the gods of Canaan’.

Unlike the last example, this one has no clear Biblical source for copying and pasting. It’s clearly taken from 1 Kings 18:19–39
Spoiler: show
[right]‎קרא הנביא אל העם הנקבצים על ההר ויאמר בחרו היום בין יהוה ובין אלהי כמען[/right]
Ah, the spoiler hide worked. Thanks.

Karl W. Randolph.
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Jason Hare
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Post by Jason Hare »

kwrandolph wrote:The verb מגן according to the concordance I used, is found only three times in Tanakh. Its meaning is “to deliver” in this case “to deliver into your hands”.
I see. You meant מִגֵּן as in Genesis 14:20:

וּבָרוּךְ֙ אֵ֣ל עֶלְי֔וֹן אֲשֶׁר־מִגֵּ֥ן צָרֶ֖יךָ בְּיָדֶ֑ךָ וַיִּתֶּן־ל֥וֹ מַעֲשֵׂ֖ר מִכֹּֽל׃
kwrandolph wrote:The noun מגן comes from the root גנן “to protect”.
So does the verb לְהָגֵן, which is a hiphil form meaning "to protect" (Isaiah 31:5; Zechariah 9:15; 12:8). The imperfect form is יָגֵן... and this hiphil verb is used in all tenses in modern Hebrew, so that מֵגֵן 'protecting' looks just like the unpointed מגן, which I've never heard used in modern Hebrew (so I may have overlooked it when reading Genesis in the past—but it'll certainly stick out for me now!).

If I were to choose a word from the modern lexicon, I would go with either מָסַר or הִסְגִּיר as 'hand [someone] over.'
Jason Hare
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Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
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Jason Hare
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Post by Jason Hare »

kwrandolph wrote:Unlike the last example, this one has no clear Biblical source for copying and pasting. It’s clearly taken from 1 Kings 18:19–39
Spoiler: show
[right]‎קרא הנביא אל העם הנקבצים על ההר ויאמר בחרו היום בין יהוה ובין אלהי כמען[/right]
I think it's better to type it out yourself anyway. ;)

When the verb is in the initial position, it would be most natural to use it as a vav-consecutive. Instead of קרא, it should be ויקרא vayyiqrāʾ. This came up in your previous post, too, but I didn't say anything.

Apart from that, your contribution is the same as mine.
kwrandolph wrote:Ah, the spoiler hide worked. Thanks.
[/quote]
It's a great idea!
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian
S_Walch
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Post by S_Walch »

Oooo, I'm actually last on this one!
Spoiler: show
קרא הנביא [לעם / אל־העם] אשר נאספו על־ההר ויאמר בחרו ביום הזה בין את־יהוה ובין את־אלהי כנען
קָרָא הַנּבִיא [לָעָם / אֶל־הָעָם] אֲשֶׁר נֶאֶסְפוּ עַל־הָהָר וְיֹּאמֶר בַּחֲרוּ בְיוֺם [בְּיוֺם ?] הַזֶה בֵּין אֶת־יהוה וּבֵין אֶת־אֱלֹהֵי כְנַעַן
Last edited by S_Walch on Fri May 22, 2020 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ste Walch
kwrandolph
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Post by kwrandolph »

Jason Hare wrote:When the verb is in the initial position, it would be most natural to use it as a vav-consecutive. Instead of קרא, it should be ויקרא vayyiqrāʾ. This came up in your previous post, too, but I didn't say anything.
Here’s one place where I’ve learned to disagree with Weingreen—the initial verb in indicative mood in a passage is in Qatal, not Yiqtol. If the initial verb is Yiqtol or Yiqtol preceded with a waw, then it indicates a continuation of a previous idea, or to carry along the narrative, or the indication of another mood such as subjunctive, anticipatory, intent, or some other of the Biblical Hebrew moods.

Because the sentences by Weingreen are written as initial sentences and not as continuation, I then write the initial verb as Qatal.

Karl W. Randolph.
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Post by S_Walch »

I too wrote Qatal קָרָא as Karl, specifically for the same reason he's done so: Weingreen's sentence doesn't begin with the "And" he's done in previous paragraphs (1 and 2; quite a lot of times in 2!). I believed this was intentional on Weingreen's part, as I presumed he would want people to have experience doing both Wayiqtol and Qatal verbs.

Plus it gives a sort of variance in the narrative, which judging from how it is in Weingreen doesn't look like it's supposed to be seen as continuing on one paragraph to the other. :)
Ste Walch
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