Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

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ducky
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Post by ducky »

In prose, the verses do not start with Qatal.
The verse starts with Qatal usually in Poetry, or when it comes to give the sense of an idea.

Maybe there are some cases, but I don't think so.
*
If you do want to start it with Qatal, then put a word before it.
for example:
Gen. 19:23
הַשֶּׁמֶשׁ יָצָא עַל הָאָרֶץ וְלוֹט בָּא צֹעֲרָה
Here, the subject (שמש) comes first.

So I feel it is better, if one wants to use the Qatal form, to start it with:
הנביא קרא

********************************
Here my translation:

[right][hide]וַיִּקְרָא הַנָּבִיא אֶל הָעָם אֲשֶׁר נִקְבְּצוּ יַחְדָּו הָהָרָה וַיֹּאמַר בַּחֲרוּ לָכֶם הַיּוֹם בֵּין י"י וּבֵין אֱלֹהֵי כְנָעַן[/hide][/right]
David Hunter
S_Walch
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Post by S_Walch »

ducky wrote:In prose, the verses do not start with Qatal.
The verse starts with Qatal usually in Poetry, or when it comes to give the sense of an idea.

Maybe there are some cases, but I don't think so.
*
If you do want to start it with Qatal, then put a word before it.
for example:
Gen. 19:23
הַשֶּׁמֶשׁ יָצָא עַל הָאָרֶץ וְלוֹט בָּא צֹעֲרָה
Here, the subject (שמש) comes first.

So I feel it is better, if one wants to use the Qatal form, to start it with:
הנביא קרא
I did a search on Qatal, which resulted in a list of over 14,000 words; so I narrowed this to just third-person singular forms, which resulted in over 6,000 examples, but even after the first 900 I only found three examples of where the Qatal started a sentence (Gen 42:30; Num 7:19, 24:9), and only one of these (Num 7:19) is it even remotely close to how I was using it in the Weingreen sentence.

So this advice from you in spot on, David. I shall remember it from now on!
Ste Walch
Jonathan Beck
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Post by Jonathan Beck »

Glad someone else used qbs! :))) My only minor complaint would be that the hitpael or that verb by itself means “to gather together” - no need for yachdav. I think the latter is mainly used for people.

I also had lakhem there at the end but decided against to for some reason.

Jonathan
S_Walch
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Post by S_Walch »

Jonathan Beck wrote:Glad someone else used qbs! :))) My only minor complaint would be that the hitpael or that verb by itself means “to gather together” - no need for yachdav. I think the latter is mainly used for people.
I liked seeing the hitpael form in your composition (btw; think you've missed a yod from your second בין); is there any reason why you used that rather than the niphal?
Ste Walch
Jonathan Beck
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Post by Jonathan Beck »

S_Walch wrote:
Jonathan Beck wrote:Glad someone else used qbs! :))) My only minor complaint would be that the hitpael or that verb by itself means “to gather together” - no need for yachdav. I think the latter is mainly used for people.
I liked seeing the hitpael form in your composition (btw; think you've missed a yod from your second בין); is there any reason why you used that rather than the niphal?
You are correct! I did miss a yod. I am an auditory learner so tend to reproduce the language based on how it sounds to my ear. I’ll probably make frequent mistakes like this. :)

I used the hitpael because that’s what I’ve seen it used as, for instance in Genesis. I think it’s in the Joseph story. I’ll look for references. In any case, hitpael also can function as a reflexive like the niphal does. I’m not sure if the niphal occurs in this verb form or not. Something to look into. :)

Jonathan
Jonathan Beck
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Post by Jonathan Beck »

kwrandolph wrote:
Jason Hare wrote:When the verb is in the initial position, it would be most natural to use it as a vav-consecutive. Instead of קרא, it should be ויקרא vayyiqrāʾ. This came up in your previous post, too, but I didn't say anything.
Here’s one place where I’ve learned to disagree with Weingreen—the initial verb in indicative mood in a passage is in Qatal, not Yiqtol. If the initial verb is Yiqtol or Yiqtol preceded with a waw, then it indicates a continuation of a previous idea, or to carry along the narrative, or the indication of another mood such as subjunctive, anticipatory, intent, or some other of the Biblical Hebrew moods.

Because the sentences by Weingreen are written as initial sentences and not as continuation, I then write the initial verb as Qatal.

Karl W. Randolph.
You mean you disagree with Weingreen, as well as virtually every other Hebrew grammar on the market? ;)

Hey, that’s actually some pretty good reasoning. But I’ve never seen a verb in narrative past prose NOT contain the wa- prefix. Can you give some examples?

If what you’re saying is true, my training would suggest that the verb and the subject should actually be reversed from what you have. I’ll explain if you’re curious. But I’m impressed!

Jonathan
Jonathan Beck
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Post by Jonathan Beck »

S_Walch wrote:
ducky wrote:In prose, the verses do not start with Qatal.
The verse starts with Qatal usually in Poetry, or when it comes to give the sense of an idea.

Maybe there are some cases, but I don't think so.
*
If you do want to start it with Qatal, then put a word before it.
for example:
Gen. 19:23
הַשֶּׁמֶשׁ יָצָא עַל הָאָרֶץ וְלוֹט בָּא צֹעֲרָה
Here, the subject (שמש) comes first.

So I feel it is better, if one wants to use the Qatal form, to start it with:
הנביא קרא
I did a search on Qatal, which resulted in a list of over 14,000 words; so I narrowed this to just third-person singular forms, which resulted in over 6,000 examples, but even after the first 900 I only found three examples of where the Qatal started a sentence (Gen 42:30; Num 7:19, 24:9), and only one of these (Num 7:19) is it even remotely close to how I was using it in the Weingreen sentence.

So this advice from you in spot on, David. I shall remember it from now on!
Just saw this. Thanks, Ste!
S_Walch
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Post by S_Walch »

Jonathan Beck wrote:I used the hitpael because that’s what I’ve seen it used as, for instance in Genesis. I think it’s in the Joseph story. I’ll look for references. In any case, hitpael also can function as a reflexive like the niphal does. I’m not sure if the niphal occurs in this verb form or not.
I already checked for references. :) Here's the list (not long):

Gen 49:2 ; Josh 10:6 ; 1 Sam 7:6 ; 1 Sam 25:1 ; 1 Sam 28:4 ; Isa 34:15 ; Isa 43:9 ; Isa 45:20 ; Isa 48:14 ; Isa 49:18 ; Isa 56:8 ; Isa 60:4 ; Isa 60:7 ; Jer 40:15 ; Ezek 29:5 ; Ezek 39:17 ; Hos 2:2 ; Joel 4:11 ; Ps 102:23 ; Esther 2:8 ; Esther 2:19 ; Ezra 10:1 ; Ezra 10:7 ; Ezra 10:9 ; Neh 4:14 ; 1 Chron 11:1 ; 1 Chron 13:2 ; 2 Chron 13:7 ; 2 Chron 15:10 ; 2 Chron 20:4 ; 2 Chron 32:4

The hitpael is certainly the rarer of the two:

Josh 9:2 ; Judg 9:47 ; 1 Sam 7:7 ; 1 Sam 8:4 ; 1 Sam 22:2 ; 2 Sam 2:25 ; Isa 44:11 ; Jer 49:14

קבץ is also quite rare in Genesis: 41:35, 48, & 49:2.

Edit:
Just checking BDB on this word, and it gives three examples of where it's used with יַחְדָּו, as per David's translation: Hosea 2:2; Isaiah 43:9; Psalm 103:23.

I also found one more: Josh 9:2.
Ste Walch
Jonathan Beck
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Post by Jonathan Beck »

Neat stuff. Thanks! I need to learn how to use the search function on my bible software.....

I would still suggest that yachdav isn’t used very often with objects. I think that list vindicates my opinion. :) I’m also sure the hitpael functions reflexivley more often than three times. As for my word choice, I just used it because I’m most familiar with the genesis narratives.

Jonathan
ducky
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Re: Weingreen Composition - Chapter 30 and On

Post by ducky »

S_Walch wrote:I did a search on Qatal, which resulted in a list of over 14,000 words; so I narrowed this to just third-person singular forms, which resulted in over 6,000 examples, but even after the first 900 I only found three examples of where the Qatal started a sentence (Gen 42:30; Num 7:19, 24:9), and only one of these (Num 7:19) is it even remotely close to how I was using it in the Weingreen sentence.

So this advice from you in spot on, David. I shall remember it from now on!
Hi Ste Walch, and thanks

So I guess there are some cases, but surely these are not the common way.

Anyway, I also want to wonder about the verses you brought so maybe we'll find something
S_Walch wrote:Gen 42:30
In Gen 42:30, I see it is a quote.
And quotes use the Qatal form, but not always in the beginning.
But I think that in quotes, the Qatal can start too.
Also in Gen. 27:35
וַיֹּאמֶר בָּא אָחִיךָ בְּמִרְמָה וַיִּקַּח בִּרְכָתֶךָ
The quote starts with QTL (Qatal) and continues with WYQTL (Wayiqtol).

And maybe, if you have a list of quotes or you have the option to search, maybe check how common it is in quotes to start them with the QTL verb before the subject. I'd be happy to see a list of quotes.
S_Walch wrote:Num 7:19
In Num 7:19, I think this came like that because it continues the previous verse which ends with the subject. and so, it is like the subject that ends the previous verse is also as starting the next verse.

I mean, something like that:
ביום השני הקריב - Predicate
נתנאל בן צוער נשיא יששכר - Subject
הקרב את קרבנו - Predicate
as if the subject belongs to both predicates and as if the two sentences use it.
1. ביום השני הקריב נתנאל בן צוער נשיא יששכר
and:
2. נתנאל בן צוער נשיא יששכר הקרב את קרבנו

Or in another way to show it - I can delete one of the verbs (הקריב), never mind which, and create one sentence.

Something like that:
1. ביום השני ̶ה̶ק̶ר̶י̶ב̶ נתנאל בן צוער נשיא יששכר הקרב את קרבנו
or:
2. ביום השני הקריב נתנאל בן צוער נשיא יששכר ̶ה̶ק̶ר̶ב̶ את קרבנו

So that is why I think we see the verse starts with QTL, because its subject is already tight to it (even though it also ends the previous sentence).
S_Walch wrote:Num 24:9
Notice that In Num 24:9 it is not prose (it's poetry), and it doesn't come to represent a past event (but a state). And it comes to represent an idea or an essence about the subject.
David Hunter
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