Weingreen Grammar, Composition 31.9

A forum for discussion about writing in ancient Hebrew, and for practicing writing in Hebrew. If you post in this forum, you are inviting people to critique what you have written and suggest ways to improve it.

Private subforums can be created for groups who want to practice together without exposing their mistakes to the world, or this can be done in public.
Forum rules
Members will observe the rules for respectful discourse at all times!
Please sign all posts with your first and last (family) name.
Post Reply
User avatar
Jason Hare
Posts: 1184
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:07 am
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
Contact:

Weingreen Grammar, Composition 31.9

Post by Jason Hare »

(9) Thus shall ye say unto the king, ‘Send thou not messengers unto me saying, “Pray for us to the Lord, for we are as (the) sheep upon whom (‘which... upon them’) the beasts of the wilderness have fallen”, for behold in the morning the Lord will cause a great sound to be heard and the enemy will return to his land’.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian
User avatar
Jason Hare
Posts: 1184
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:07 am
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
Contact:

Re: Weingreen Grammar, Composition 31.9

Post by Jason Hare »

Spoiler: show
כֹּה תֹּאמְרוּ אֶל־הַמֶּ֫לֶךְ אַל־תִּשְׁלַח אֵלַי מַלְאָכִים הָאֹמְרִים הִתְפַּלֵּל בַּעֲדֵ֫נוּ אֶל־יַהְוֶה כִּי אֲנַ֫חְנוּ כַּצֹּאן אֲשֶׁר חַיּוֹת הַמִּדְבָּר הִתְנַפְּלוּ עֲלֵיהֶם כִּי הִנֵּה יַהְוֶה יַשְׁמִיעַ בַּבֹּ֫קֶר קוֹל גָּדֹל וְהָאֹיֵב יָשׁוּב אֶל־אַרְצוֹ׃
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian
ducky
Posts: 656
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: Weingreen Grammar, Composition 31.9

Post by ducky »

Hi Jason,
Maybe I don't understand the English text right, but didn't he meant התנפלו when he wrote "fallen"?

And I think he also meant (and it is better) - כצאן
David Hunter
User avatar
Jason Hare
Posts: 1184
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:07 am
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
Contact:

Re: Weingreen Grammar, Composition 31.9

Post by Jason Hare »

I didn't see the word "as"! :)

Was התנפל a biblical form? I know that ליפול עליהם was a biblical expression for attacking (at least, I think I remember reading that).
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian
User avatar
Jason Hare
Posts: 1184
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:07 am
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
Contact:

Re: Weingreen Grammar, Composition 31.9

Post by Jason Hare »

Looking up the root, I see that it does indeed appear in the hitpael. The only reference giving in CHALOT for "fall on, attack" is Genesis 43:18. It also says that נפל is used for "attack" with the object governed by the preposition ב. I'm going to leave it as-is, since the text specifically says "upon them."
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian
Jonathan Beck
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon May 11, 2020 5:16 pm
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Contact:

Re: Weingreen Grammar, Composition 31.9

Post by Jonathan Beck »

Spoiler: show
כֹּה תֹֹאמְרוּ לַמֶּלֶךְ׃ אַל־תִּשְׁלַח אֵלַי מַלְאָכִים לֵאמֹר הִתּפַּלֵּל בַּעֲדֵנוּ לַיהוה כִּי כַּצֹאן אַנַחְנוּ אַשֶׁר עֲלֵיהֶם נָפְלוּ חַיּוֹת הַשָׁדֶה כִּי הִנֵּה הִשְׁמִיעַ יהוה בַבֹּקֶר קֹל גָּדוֹל וְהָאֹיֵב יָשׁוּב לְאַרְצוֹ
ducky
Posts: 656
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: Weingreen Grammar, Composition 31.9

Post by ducky »

Hi Jason,

I understand you, but the combination of נפל+על is used for being attacked beaten (and not to do the attack).
so when you write נפלו עליהם it is like that the beasts were fallen and defeated.

When he wrote "fall+upon" I think he pointed to the usage of התנפל על
David Hunter
Post Reply