Question on the name Samuel from 1 Sam 1:20

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Jason Hare
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Re: Question on the name Samuel from 1 Sam 1:20

Post by Jason Hare »

ducky wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:02 am I think that גב and גו is not a good exmaple to bring.
גב/גו/גוף are all from the same base.
You don't think it's significant that one author spells "back" as גַּב gav and the other as גַּו gav? I agree with you that the later authors are a good indicator, but they don't show what the pronunciation was 450 BCE or earlier, which is the only thing that Karl is interested in (according to his claims).
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Jason Hare
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Re: Question on the name Samuel from 1 Sam 1:20

Post by Jason Hare »

ducky wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:02 am So clearly this ו as V is not something new, and it goes back to the mishnaic times.
And surely it doesn't mean that everyone pronounced it like that, but it shows about a known pronounciation of that letter by some speakers and reader.
Just to point out, we're talking about early times still. The Mishnah was completed near the end of the second century or as late as the mid-third century. It isn't a "medieval" document - just to preempt that accusation.
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Isaac Fried
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Re: Question on the name Samuel from 1 Sam 1:20

Post by Isaac Fried »

Ducky writes
I think that גב and גו is not a good exmaple to bring.
גב/גו/גוף are all from the same base.
Ducky. Would you clarify to us please what is this "base" which is "the same" for גב/גו/גוף.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
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Re: Question on the name Samuel from 1 Sam 1:20

Post by Jason Hare »

Another good piece of evidence is the fact that in all but five Jewish communities in the world (all within Arab majority countries) the tradition is to pronounce ו as v. This includes many communities of Arabic-speaking Jews who would pronounce Arabic و as w, then they would enter the synagogue and read Hebrew ו as v. This shows that the tradition held since the diaspora until the present day, when those communities immigrated to Israel. It would be absurd to think that Yiddish in the Middle Ages influenced Arabic-speaking Jews all over the world. Yemenites were one of the five communities that pronounced ו like و as w. This was probably by influence of having lived under Arabic influence for so long. In other words, their pronunciation was influenced by Arabic; it wasn't the earlier pronunciation of the consonant.
Jason Hare
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Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
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ducky
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Re: Question on the name Samuel from 1 Sam 1:20

Post by ducky »

Hi Jason,

Karl wrote that letter ו as V was inherit from Yiddish.
so I gave sources that show that the pronunciation of ו as V is not related to Yiddish (actually, should say Ashkenazi accent).
Jason Hare wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:56 am
ducky wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:02 am I think that גב and גו is not a good exmaple to bring.
גב/גו/גוף are all from the same base.
You don't think it's significant that one author spells "back" as גַּב gav and the other as גַּו gav? I agree with you that the later authors are a good indicator, but they don't show what the pronunciation was 450 BCE or earlier, which is the only thing that Karl is interested in (according to his claims).
I think I don't understand you.
Do you claim that the letter ו was V in the biblical era?
I really don't think so, and maybe you can show me why you think that.

The ב in the biblcial era was B (the alternative V came later or at the end of this era).
So even if you want to say that the ו was V in the biblcial era, when you compare גו to גב in sounds, you actually say that the ו was was similar to B?

don't forget that the בומף are all from the lips. and thee can be a switch in the pronunciation.
I gave the example of גו/גב/גוף
So also גוף is in that group, and גו and גויה comes in the meaning of גוף as well.
But we won't say that the P of גוף sounded like the ו or the ב.
Jason Hare wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:56 am Just to point out, we're talking about early times still. The Mishnah was completed near the end of the second century or as late as the mid-third century. It isn't a "medieval" document - just to preempt that accusation.
Yes, I was talking about the ו as V
And I wanted to show that already in the Mishnaic time there was evidence for that pronunciation.
(Also, just to clear things, I don't say that that was the only way, but I guess, this pronuncaition was).
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Re: Question on the name Samuel from 1 Sam 1:20

Post by ducky »

Jason Hare wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:36 am Another good piece of evidence is the fact that in all but five Jewish communities in the world (all within Arab majority countries) the tradition is to pronounce ו as v. This includes many communities of Arabic-speaking Jews who would pronounce Arabic و as w, then they would enter the synagogue and read Hebrew ו as v. This shows that the tradition held since the diaspora until the present day, when those communities immigrated to Israel. It would be absurd to think that Yiddish in the Middle Ages influenced Arabic-speaking Jews all over the world. Yemenites were one of the five communities that pronounced ו like و as w. This was probably by influence of having lived under Arabic influence for so long. In other words, their pronunciation was influenced by Arabic; it wasn't the earlier pronunciation of the consonant.
The Yemenite are not the only one who pronounce the ו as W.

And according to what I understand, you clain that the original sound of the ו was W?

seems unreasonable.
the way that the ו acts is not as a "full" consonant but it acts as half-consonant half vowel.
It easily tunred silent and to a vowel lette, and it easily replaced with Y (which also half consonant half vowel) and so on.
if it was a consonant like V - it would'nt happened.

The switch between W to V came later.
David Hunter
ducky
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Re: Question on the name Samuel from 1 Sam 1:20

Post by ducky »

Isaac Fried wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:36 am Ducky writes
I think that גב and גו is not a good exmaple to bring.
גב/גו/גוף are all from the same base.
Ducky. Would you clarify to us please what is this "base" which is "the same" for גב/גו/גוף.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
when I wrote "base" in this comment, I only meant to the base of the sound in the mouth (Place of articulation) - which is the lips, and therefore, when there are similar roots that use close consonant with the same Place of articulation, it is not to be used to say that one letter's sound was like the other letter's sound.

As for the base of גב גו גף - the direct base is a line (actually there is a base to that base, but I write here only the direct one for these words)
which you can see that גב גו גף is like קו
and קו is like גבול
and it fts to צב (as נצב=stand tall)
and in Arabic the word for standing is WQF (וקף)
and Hebrew has its קפא (as in נִצְּבוּ כְמוֹ נֵד נֹזְלִים קָפְאוּ תְהֹמֹת בְּלֶב יָם)
and many more.

But this base has another base, which brings a few meaning that link to each other. and this base is just one branch from the first one.
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Re: Question on the name Samuel from 1 Sam 1:20

Post by Jason Hare »

ducky wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:14 am Karl wrote that letter ו as V was inherit from Yiddish.
so I gave sources that show that the pronunciation of ו as V is not related to Yiddish (actually, should say Ashkenazi accent).
And that's sufficient. Yiddish surely developed long after the writing of the Mishnah. I missed that he said that. I've heard other people make that claim before, but I didn't think it would be made here. So, I didn't realize that that was the point you were making.
ducky wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:14 am I think I don't understand you.
Do you claim that the letter ו was V in the biblical era?
I really don't think so, and maybe you can show me why you think that.

The ב in the biblcial era was B (the alternative V came later or at the end of this era).
So even if you want to say that the ו was V in the biblcial era, when you compare גו to גב in sounds, you actually say that the ו was was similar to B?

don't forget that the בומף are all from the lips. and thee can be a switch in the pronunciation.
I gave the example of גו/גב/גוף
So also גוף is in that group, and גו and גויה comes in the meaning of גוף as well.
But we won't say that the P of גוף sounded like the ו or the ב.
Honestly, (like Isaac) I didn't understand that you meant "base" to refer to "place of articulation," and I was struggling to understand what you were referring to, but now I understand what you mean.
ducky wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:19 am The Yemenite are not the only one who pronounce the ו as W.
When I said "five communities in the Arabic speaking world," I hope you didn't consider that I meant "one community." I meant five communities. This is what I read. It just so happens that when grammar books (such as Seow's) presents the idea that vav = w, they refer to the Yemenite community, and that is the community that pops up in people's thinking. That's why I mentioned it.
ducky wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:19 am And according to what I understand, you clain that the original sound of the ו was W?
It's obvious that the original Semitic sound was w. I don't dispute that. However, my point is the v is a valid and ancient pronunciation. I think that it made the switch at the very end of the biblical period in the post-exilic expression of the language.
Jason Hare
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Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
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Isaac Fried
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Re: Question on the name Samuel from 1 Sam 1:20

Post by Isaac Fried »

Ducky writes
As for the base of גב גו גף - the direct base is a line (actually there is a base to that base, but I write here only the direct one for these words) which you can see that גב גו גף is like קו and קו is like גבול and it fts to צב (as נצב=stand tall)
I am sorry, but it is still not clear to me how I "see" that גב גו גף are "like" קו. What is this "like"?
And how is קו "like" גבול. Also how it "fits" to צב.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
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Re: Question on the name Samuel from 1 Sam 1:20

Post by ducky »

Hi Isaac,

Really?
you from all people ask that question?

never mind.
you don't see me write a lot about this subject - because I try to avoid doing that in this forum.
But I think you can figure this thing alone.
David Hunter
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