qametz Chatuph & chateph qamets

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ralph
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Re: qametz Chatuph & chateph qamets

Post by ralph »

stevenmiller wrote: thanks Jason! I take it that both the Chateph Qamets (qamets with sheva in front) and qamets chatuph sound like an "o" as in "hope".
no!
jason wrote: Correct.
no! this is confused!!

It's like the 'o' in the British pronunciation of "clock", or "dot" or "hop"(no e!) or "flop" or "mop" or "god".

Not "hope", "boat", etc.

The Chateph Qamets/hataf kamatz (qamets with sheva, so the compound shva) . and the "kamatz chatuph"(more simply known as the kamatz katan), are oh like the british pronunciation of clock.

This sound is almost non-existent in American English, so Americans often pronounce it wrongly.

(that is a great website, click the button to hear it spoken in UK pronunciation and you can contrast US pronunciation and you will see the issue!)

Look at the UK pronunciation of clock
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... lish/clock

Or the UK pronunciation of orange
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... ish/orange

Americans actually have to learn how to make this sound, because it's almost never used if at all.. So for example, making a circle with the mouth.

It is like the Sephardi Cholam.


The example of "hope" is not that at all. Interestingly, the Ashkenazi Cholam is like the 'o' in Hope.

And i've heard that the Yemenite pronunciation of Cholam is also like the ashkenazi pronunciation of Cholam.

glenn wrote:in Pratico & Pelt they indicate to pronounce the hateph qamets as the "a" sound you hear in the word "commit"
Pratico and Pelt often try to reconstruct ancient pronunciation so for example they have a bible audio for their flashcards where for Adam they use the soft dalet, Atham. like the th in THe. (So the dalet without a dagesh, pronounced as yemenites would do dalet without dagesh). Whereas sephardim and ashkenazim have lost the distinction with dalet, and would do dalet the same with or without dagesh,

For hataph patach they have some latin characters for hataph patach, hatach segol and hataph kamatz. And for cholam.. they do them all differently..(a different latin letter to represent the pronunciation of each of those..), Maybe they're right..

But sephardi and modern hebrew do the kamatz katan like the hataph patach. But pratico do a more reconstructed academic ancient pronunciation.
Ralph Zak
ducky
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Re: qametz Chatuph & chateph qamets

Post by ducky »

I think all of this "pronunciation" talk is one big mess.

Tiberian MT - one Qamats - one sound
the Hataph-patah' (Qamats with two dots) is the same but it is a half-vowel

Babylonian MT (and also other MT) - One Qamats - one sound.
But... they didn't have the Qamats that derived from the "u" sound - they just wrote "u".
And in other MT it is written as "o" like Holam.

Sephardic - two Qamats
one is "a" (like patah')
one is "o" (like Holam)
And the Qamats-Hataph is a half-vowel

Of course, we may found some explanation that this should be a little bit different from that, but I think it is also kind of artificial, and I guess I may find some explanations about it if there is such a case.
David Hunter
ralph
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Re: qametz Chatuph & chateph qamets

Post by ralph »

ducky wrote: And the Qamats-Hataph is a half-vowel
hmm

half vowel is a strange concept.. Is a simple vocal Shva is a half vowel?

As I understand it, a Hataph Kamatz, Hataph Segol and Hataph Patach, are compound shva.. and since they are vocal shva, they are half vowels.

But from what I understand, a Kamatz Hatuph(kamatz katan) , yeah I suppose would maybe be a half vowel.. 'cos Hatuph is a participle form of Hataph.. and the hataph/hurried.. idea, is I suppose maybe an indication that it's a "half vowel"?

I had thought that maybe it was only the vocal shva that was a half vowel.. but now i'm thinking it's hataph/hatuph vowels, which makes me wonder if a simple vocal shva is a half vowel.
Last edited by ralph on Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ralph Zak
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Jason Hare
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Re: qametz Chatuph & chateph qamets

Post by Jason Hare »

ralph wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:42 pm
stevenmiller wrote: thanks Jason! I take it that both the Chateph Qamets (qamets with sheva in front) and qamets chatuph sound like an "o" as in "hope".
no!
jason wrote: Correct.
no! this is confused!!
I'm certainly not confused about how to pronounce vowels in a language that I speak fluently. You're trying to cause confusion where none exists - and then you complain that I'm not easy to communicate with. There is absolutely no difference in pronunciation between the vowels in קָדְשִׁי qoḏšî "my holiness," קֹ֫דֶשׁ qṓḏeš "holiness" (defective spelling), ק֫וֹדֶשׁ qốḏeš "holiness" (plene spelling), or קֳדָשִׁים qŏḏāšîm "holinesses" ("holy places"). I don't see what you're aiming at accomplishing by being contrary on a very basic concept.
Jason Hare
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www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

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Jason Hare
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Re: qametz Chatuph & chateph qamets

Post by Jason Hare »

Kamats ḥatuf = kamats katan = ◌ָ (in an unaccented closed syllable)
ḥataf kamats = ◌ֳ

All ḥataf vowels are considered reduced or "half" vowels.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian
ralph
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Re: qametz Chatuph & chateph qamets

Post by ralph »

Jason Hare wrote: I'm certainly not confused about how to pronounce vowels in a language that I speak fluently.
You are not a "this"/"that". I didn't say you are or are not confused, but the statement you said "correct" to, was confused/incorrect, and I mentioned where.

I don't think you want to understand what I said.

The part of the statement that said that it sounded like the "o" in hope, is wrong. Confused. (despite you labelling the statement as correct).

You can keep saying that kamatz katan and cholam are pronounced the same, but that is simply repeating what I said clearly enough already in this thread. You know I said that, and that I don't disagree with that. I made clear where I take issue is with the statement that they are like the "o" in "hope".

Here is what I wrote

"
no! this is confused!!

It's like the 'o' in the British pronunciation of "clock", or "dot" or "hop"(no e!) or "flop" or "mop" or "god".
"

You ignored the word "this", from the first statement, and you totally ignored the second statement, which expanded on where the statement you said was correct, was actually incorrect. That they are not pronounced like the "o" in hope, and how they are pronounced.
Ralph Zak
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