Lamoh - what is the parsing of that word? (last word of Isaiah 53:8)

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Jason Hare
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Re: Lamoh - what is the parsing of that word? (last word of Isaiah 53:8)

Post by Jason Hare »

Yeah, of course. I was just comparing the fact that they have different forms. Each of the כל"ב prepositions can appear in two forms with the 3ms pronoun, for whatever reason.
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Re: Lamoh - what is the parsing of that word? (last word of Isaiah 53:8)

Post by ralph »

What do you think of the idea that למו isn't just like a regular להם But is for when you have a single entity made up of multiple individuals/things?

Hence looking at occurrences I see lots of cases of it referring to groups of people
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Re: Lamoh - what is the parsing of that word? (last word of Isaiah 53:8)

Post by SteveMiller »

ducky wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:31 pm I don't know about that.
The fact that למו comes mostly in poetic might deceive us to think like that.
After all, poetry is basically talking in an "idea" way and in a general way
And so it may be seen as if the meaning of למו is about an extended group.
Thanks David.
That is a good description of poetry. I will keep that.
למו is not just mostly used in poetic. It is 100% only used in poetic statements. Never in narrative.
I agree that it is easy to see the vast majority of poetic statements referring to the extended group.
ducky wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:31 pm But I bet that there are many להם that also talk about general groups.
and I guess that we can find למו also in a specific manner.
Right. I need to look at all the occurrences of למו.
There are too many instances of להם for me to do that exhaustively, but I could do all those in poetic books (208 verses).
ducky wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:31 pm the למו is an extention of the famous לם (I mean just suffix M)
I don't know what you mean by לם. I don't find any occurrences of it. But I see what you mean by the mem suffix below.
ducky wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:31 pm we can see the nouns ends somtimes with הם
as מעשיהם
and sometimes with ם
as פרים
and the מו is just an extention
פרים
פרימו
I see what you mean.
There is even a instance of ‎ פְּרִיהֶֽם in Amo 9:14, which is almost the same sentence as 2Ki 19:29 which uses ‎פִרְיָֽם.
So I can see the 3mp suffix הֶֽם being the same in meaning to the mem only 3mp suffix.
The one use of פרימו in Ps 21:11 is relevant to lamo as it uses the same mo 3mp suffix.
The antecedent for mo goes back to those that hate God and the King in v9.
Then V10 uses the mo suffix on the 1st verb to refer back to them and just the mem 3mp suffix on the last 2 verbs.
and v13 uses the mo suffix on the same verb as v10.
I would need to check all the mo 3mp suffixes on nouns, prepositions and verbs.
ducky wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:31 pm the suffix is the same - And I don't think that we should see the למו and the להם as if it has a difference in the meaning.
We shall see. I think the burden of proof is upon me and/or Ralph to show that they are different.
Thank you! I learn a lot from your posts.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
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Re: Lamoh - what is the parsing of that word? (last word of Isaiah 53:8)

Post by SteveMiller »

ralph wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:13 am What do you think of the idea that למו isn't just like a regular להם But is for when you have a single entity made up of multiple individuals/things?

Hence looking at occurrences I see lots of cases of it referring to groups of people
That is what I had thought before you posted this question. I thought lamo referred back to a collective noun.
But looking at a lot of the instances of lamo, I don't see that working.
For example:
I don't see a single entity as group in Job 3:14; 6:19; 14:21; 22:17,19 or in most uses.

I think it is significant that lamo is only used in poetry because of the expanded application and compressed meaning in poetry.
I need to check the other uses of the mo suffix. Are they also only poetic?

Look at Job 3:14-15
‎14 עִם־מְ֭לָכִים וְיֹ֣עֲצֵי אָ֑רֶץ הַבֹּנִ֖ים חֳרָב֣וֹת לָֽמוֹ׃
15 א֣וֹ עִם־שָׂ֭רִים זָהָ֣ב לָהֶ֑ם הַֽמְמַלְאִ֖ים בָּתֵּיהֶ֣ם כָּֽסֶף׃


4 With kings and counsellors of the earth, who build desolate places for themselves (lamo),
15 Or with princes who had (lahem) gold, who filled their houses with silver;

In v14 The kings and counsellors built places for their nations, not just themselves
In v15, the princes are the ones who had gold. Not the people.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
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Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
ralph
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Re: Lamoh - what is the parsing of that word? (last word of Isaiah 53:8)

Post by ralph »

SteveMiller wrote: I think it is significant that lamo is only used in poetry
Definitely not only used in poetry! (and you'd have to be pretty fluent in hebrew to identify poetry anyway.. 'cos poetry can involve plays on words).

This site has a hebrew bible search

http://sparks.simania.co.il

These are instances of למו
http://sparks.simania.co.il/bibleSearch ... 7%9E%D7%95

50-60 instances
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Jason Hare
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Re: Lamoh - what is the parsing of that word? (last word of Isaiah 53:8)

Post by Jason Hare »

ralph wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:13 am What do you think of the idea that למו isn't just like a regular להם But is for when you have a single entity made up of multiple individuals/things?

Hence looking at occurrences I see lots of cases of it referring to groups of people
Seems like a claim that needs to be demonstrated. (If you want to try to demonstrate it, you'll see that it fails. There is no noticeable difference between למו and להם in usage, but if you want to make it a hypothesis and set out to prove it, this is how things are established as rules.)

When doing this, you should take the ־מוֹ (-emo/-amo) suffixes into account that are placed on verbs.
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Re: Lamoh - what is the parsing of that word? (last word of Isaiah 53:8)

Post by ducky »

I think that it would be most likely to say that the למו comes at the ends of sentences or pausal places.
Just from a quick look, I saw that it comes almost always in that condition.


And so, Maybe, (it sounds to me that) it was more of a "style".
As ending the idea with a slower way and "emphasis to the closer (as the accent is backward).
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Re: Lamoh - what is the parsing of that word? (last word of Isaiah 53:8)

Post by kwrandolph »

Years ago I was in a discussion about this word למו. In looking at its uses, it refers to either singular as in Genesis 9:26–27 and Deuteronomy 33:2, though usually refers to plural. It consists of the prefix ל with the suffix מו.

The מו suffix is also used elsewhere, e.g. במו in nine verses, Isaiah 43:2, 44:16, 19, Psalm 11:2, Job 9:30, 16:4–5, 19:16, 37:8, כמו in about 53 verses, and sometimes attached to nouns.

Even though it is a suffix itself, it can take other suffixes, e.g. כמוכם Job 12:3.

Its purposes seems to be to emphasize the word to which it’s appended, as in adding “even” in English.

With that as a background, we then can parse its meaning in Isaiah 53:8—it consists of a prefix ל with the suffix מו, it can be either singular or plural (in this context singular), it seems to be an emphatic.

Karl W. Randolph.
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Re: Lamoh - what is the parsing of that word? (last word of Isaiah 53:8)

Post by ducky »

Hi Karl,

You are comparing two things that are not the same.

What you are talking about is למו/במו/כמו with Sheva (and linked to a noun).
These are the preposition letter connecting to the מו (which is probably "ma-->mo after Canaanite Shift).
Anyway, it comes before a noun.

But the issue here is למו with Qamats.
which the מו, in this case, is the suffix of the pronoun.

So there is למו (lemO) which comes before a noun and linked to it)
And there is למו(lAmo) which comes usually after a noun or a verb with another meaning.

(Note: I prefer not talking about the specific verse in Isaiah, but in General).
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Re: Lamoh - what is the parsing of that word? (last word of Isaiah 53:8)

Post by Jason Hare »

ducky wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:56 pm What you are talking about is למו/במו/כמו with Sheva (and linked to a noun).
These are the preposition letter connecting to the מו (which is probably "ma-->mo after Canaanite Shift).
Anyway, it comes before a noun.
Like לְמוֹ־חָ֫רֶב in Job 27.14? Reminds me of the expression בְּמוֹ עֵינָיו, which we use in modern Hebrew. I see now בְּמוֹ רֹאשִׁי (Job 16.4) and בְּמוֹ־פִי (Job 16.5). It's normal to use כְּמוֹ in modern Hebrew, but I wasn't aware specifically of בְּמוֹ and לְמוֹ in the Tanach. Nice! Thanks!
Jason Hare
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Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

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