Lamoh - what is the parsing of that word? (last word of Isaiah 53:8)

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ralph
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Re: Lamoh - what is the parsing of that word? (last word of Isaiah 53:8)

Post by ralph »

kwrandolph wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:41 pm Years ago I was in a discussion about this word למו. In looking at its uses, it refers to either singular as in Genesis 9:26–27 and Deuteronomy 33:2, though usually refers to plural.
You can't make a sure case that either of those are singular.

Your example from Gen 9:26 and Gen 9:27 וִיהִי כְנַעַן, עֶבֶד לָמוֹ (Canaan is not just a person but a nation).

Deuteronomy 33:2 is plural. "a fiery law unto them.".
stevenmiller wrote: I don't see a single entity as group in
Job 3:14; 6:19; 14:21; 22:17
great examples, thanks
stevenmiller wrote: Just looking at a lot, but not all of the uses, I theorize that lamo means something like its sound-alike לעמו "to/for his people" or "to/for his/their extended people/group"
would there be many examples of Lahem that aren't relating to people?

perhaps we should consider how often lahem is used for "those objects"!
Ralph Zak
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Re: Lamoh - what is the parsing of that word? (last word of Isaiah 53:8)

Post by kwrandolph »

ralph wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:13 am
kwrandolph wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:41 pm Years ago I was in a discussion about this word למו. In looking at its uses, it refers to either singular as in Genesis 9:26–27 and Deuteronomy 33:2, though usually refers to plural.
You can't make a sure case that either of those are singular.

Your example from Gen 9:26 and Gen 9:27 וִיהִי כְנַעַן, עֶבֶד לָמוֹ (Canaan is not just a person but a nation).
At the time Noah made the curse, all three of the persons named were individuals, not nations.
ralph wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:13 amDeuteronomy 33:2 is plural. "a fiery law unto them.".
In Deuteronomy 33:2, למו is found twice, the first time I read as referring to God.

As I understand its uses, at least three times למו refers to individuals, not groups. Thus I read the context of Isaiah 53:8 as referring to an individual.

Karl W. Randolph.
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Re: Lamoh - what is the parsing of that word? (last word of Isaiah 53:8)

Post by ralph »

kwrandolph wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:22 pm Gen 9:26 Gen 9:27
In Deuteronomy 33:2,
gen 9:26 and gen 9:27 you don't take as prophetic then? you think that it's just the individual(canaan), that would be a slave and not the people/descendents of canaan?

I guess maybe that could make sense 'cos we don't see Canaanites as servant to Shem..

Or maybe
it's connected to the promises to israel Deut 15:6 "..and thou shalt rule over many nations, but they shall not rule over thee" and Gen 27:29 "..Let peoples serve thee, and nations bow down to thee. Be lord over thy brethren.."

though they are quite different statements to Gen 9

so maybe right that it's individual there in Gen 9.

Or Gen 9 could be a promise re the future.

Actually.. Gen 9:27 "God enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and let Canaan be their servant."

So do you think it means one individual Canaan is serving the entire tribe of Yaphet? makes no sense..

So it seems like Gen 9:27 is clearly a Them.

deuteronomy 33:2 JPS 1917 has "them" both times for Lamoh. "rose from Seir unto them" and "fiery law unto them"

If you take it as "rose from Seir to him", then I don't really see how that works.
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Re: Lamoh - what is the parsing of that word? (last word of Isaiah 53:8)

Post by SteveMiller »

ralph wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:46 pm
SteveMiller wrote: I think it is significant that lamo is only used in poetry
Definitely not only used in poetry! (and you'd have to be pretty fluent in hebrew to identify poetry anyway.. 'cos poetry can involve plays on words).
I don't see a single use that is not poetic. Some poetry is difficult to recognize, but these are all obvious. i.e song of Moses, Psalms, non-narrative parts of Job and prophets.
Klein also says it is only used poetically.

I count 7 uses of lamo (not counting lemo) that are not used at the end of a clause. That is 7 out of about 50.
ralph wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:46 pmThis site has a hebrew bible search

http://sparks.simania.co.il

These are instances of למו
http://sparks.simania.co.il/bibleSearch ... 7%9E%D7%95

50-60 instances
Bibleworks gives me 57 hits (including the preposition lemo). I looked at them all. All are poetic, even lemo.
Searching the mo suffix in BibleWorks is difficult. I search for words ending in mo, and get 1534 hits, mostly words that end in mem and have a 3ms suffix.
Is the site you give better for this kind of search?

I see one singular usage of lamo:
Isa 44:15b ‎ ֙ וַיִּשְׁתָּ֔חוּ עָשָׂ֥הוּ פֶ֖סֶל וַיִּסְגָּד־לָֽמוֹ
He made it a graven image, and prostrated himself to it.

I think the meaning of lamo here is that the image includes many images.
I don't think lahem could be used here, because there is no plural antecedent.
If lo was used, then it would just be that one image.
The same applies to Noah's curse and blessing in Gen 9.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
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Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
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Re: Lamoh - what is the parsing of that word? (last word of Isaiah 53:8)

Post by SteveMiller »

I looked up all the mo pronoun suffixes. I did it by searching for all the words ending in mo, and then searching the resultant list for 3ms and 3mp pronoun suffixes of prepositions (13x), nouns (23x), verbs (18x), adverbs (2x)

Prepositions:
Besides lamo, there are only 2 other prepositions with the mo suffix:
עָ֜לֵ֗ימוֹ -12x
Deu 32:23 I will heap mischiefs on them
Job 6:16 ref singular ice
20:23 it will rain upon him into his flesh
21:17 their calamity comes upon them - ref to plural wicked
22:2 unto himself the wise man is profitable
27:23 men swhall clap their hands at him
29:22 upon them my speech dropped
30:2 upon them
5 they cry after them
Ps 5:11 You will cover them
55:16 let death sieze upon them
64:8 by their tongue they make him fall upon them
אֵלֵ֣ימוֹ -1x
Ps. 2:5 speak to them

nouns - 23x
צָרֵ֑ימוֹ (Deut. 32:27 WTT) their adversaries
‎ עֲנָבֵ֙מוֹ (Deut. 32:32 WTT) their grapes
‎ אֱלֹהֵ֑ימוֹ (Deut. 32:37 WTT) where are their gods
‎ זְבָחֵ֙ימוֹ (Deut. 32:38 WTT) their sacrifices
‎ בָּמוֹתֵ֥ימוֹ (Deut. 33:29 WTT) their high places
‎ עָ֜לֵ֗ימוֹ בִּלְחוּמֽוֹ (Job 20:23 WTT) it will rain upon him into his flesh
‎ עָלֵ֣ימוֹ כַפֵּ֑ימוֹ (Job 27:23 WTT) he shall clap his hands at him. 3ms verb. indef pronoun
‎ מֽוֹסְרוֹתֵ֑ימוֹ (Ps. 2:3 WTT) let us break their (God and Christ's) bonds asunder
‎ עֲבֹתֵֽימוֹ (Ps. 2:3 WTT) cast away their cords from us
‎ פָנֵֽימוֹ (Ps. 11:7 WTT) His (God's) countenance beholds the upright
‎ חֶלְבָּ֥מוֹ (Ps. 17:10 WTT) their fat
‎ פִּ֜֗ימוֹ (Ps. 17:10 WTT) their mouth
‎ פִּ֭רְיָמוֹ (Ps. 21:11 WTT) you will destroy their fruit from the earth (and their seed just mem)
‎ שִׁנֵּֽימוֹ (Ps. 35:16 WTT) they have gnashed their teeth against me
‎ בָּתֵּ֙ימוֹ (Ps. 49:12 WTT) their inward thought is their houses are forever
‎ שִׁנֵּ֥ימוֹ בְּפִ֑ימוֹ (Ps. 58:7 WTT) break their teeth in their mouth
‎ חַטַּאת־פִּ֗ימוֹ דְּֽבַר־שְׂפָ֫תֵ֥ימוֹ (Ps. 59:13 WTT) sin of their mouth, word of their lips
‎ עֵינֵ֑מוֹ (Ps. 73:7 WTT) their eyes go out from fatness
‎ נְסִיכֵֽמוֹ׃ (Ps. 83:12 WTT) make all their nobles as Zeba and Zalmunna
‎ עֻזָּ֣מוֹ (Ps. 89:18 WTT) You are the beauty of their strength
‎ שְׂפָתֵ֣ימוֹ יְכַסּוּמוֹ (Ps. 140:10 WTT) Let the mischief of their own lips cover them

verbs: 18x
‎ יְכַסְיֻ֑מוּ (Exod. 15:5 WTT) the depths covered them
‎ יֹאכְלֵ֖מוֹ (Exod. 15:7 WTT) your wrath consumed them
‎ תִּמְלָאֵ֣מוֹ (Exod. 15:9 WTT) My soul shall be satisfied upon them
‎ תּוֹרִישֵׁ֖מוֹ (Exod. 15:9 WTT) my hand shall dispossess them
‎ כִּסָּ֣מוֹ (Exod. 15:10 WTT) the sea covered them
‎ תִּבְלָעֵ֖מוֹ (Exod. 15:12 WTT) the earth swallowed them
‎ יֹֽאחֲזֵ֖מוֹ (Exod. 15:15 WTT) trembling seized on them
‎ תְּבִאֵ֗מוֹ וְתִטָּעֵ֙מוֹ (Exod. 15:17 WTT) You shall bring them and plant them in the mt of Your inher
‎ וְגֵרַשְׁתָּ֖מוֹ (Exod. 23:31 WTT) that you may disposess them
‎ יְבַהֲלֵֽמוֹ׃ (Ps. 2:5 WTT) in His fierce anger He will terrify them
‎ תְּשִׁיתֵ֤מוֹ׀ (Ps. 21:10 WTT) You shall set them as a fiery furnace
‎ תְּשִׁיתֵ֣מוֹ (Ps. 21:13 WTT) You will set them as a shoulder
‎ וַֽתְּפַלְּטֵֽמוֹ׃ (Ps. 22:5 WTT) Our fathers confided in Thee and You delivered them
‎ תְּשִׁיתֵ֥מוֹ (Ps. 45:17 WTT) You shall ordain them to be princes
‎ עֲנָקַ֣תְמוֹ (Ps. 73:6 WTT) pride encompasses them
‎ וַ֜תַּשְׁקֵ֗מוֹ (Ps. 80:6 WTT) You have given them to drink tears
‎ שְׂפָתֵ֣ימוֹ (יְכַסּוּמוֹ) (Ps. 140:10 WTT) let the mischief of their own lips cover them

adverb - 2x
‎ וְֽאֵ֫ינֵ֥מוֹ (Ps. 59:14 WTT) and they will be no more
‎ אֵינֵ֑מוֹ (Ps. 73:5 WTT) they do not have the hardships of mankind

All these 56 uses of mo are poetic except for Exo 23:31.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
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Re: Lamoh - what is the parsing of that word? (last word of Isaiah 53:8)

Post by Jason Hare »

Great information, Steve!
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