question about u -kubutz, shuruk.. (and also, "old u")

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ralph
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Re: question about u -kubutz, shuruk.. (and also, "old u")

Post by ralph »

ducky wrote: You need to understand that my ear is not really good with diction and vowels and I can't even pronounce the "put" and the "food" in the right way as the recording says.
You should learn. It is nursery level English

There are people from America and London all over the place that can show you.

This video infact shows the two sounds uh(like put or could), vs oo(like food). The whole video is explaining clearly the difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21b69Q-9S6c

I'm familiar with ashkenazi and sephardi pronunciation, apart from maybe some fine details.

By the way, Is it only Ashkenazi that has a distinction between Segol and Tsere?
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Jason Hare
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Re: question about u -kubutz, shuruk.. (and also, "old u")

Post by Jason Hare »

ralph wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:41 pm Thanks, and when you say long and short, do you mean

A)length of time the sound is held for?

B)the difference between "put" and "food"

C)grammatical rules long and short, which would impact modern(post levita/bachur), shva rules

Or some combination of A,B,C?
"Long" and "short" just lets us distinguish between:

kamats (long) and pataḥ (short)
tsere (long) and segol (short)
ḥolam (long) and kamats katan (short)

It's purely grammatical and has nothing to do with how long you hold the vowel or how it sounds, except that long kamats is "a" and short kamats is "o."
Jason Hare
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ralph
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Re: question about u -kubutz, shuruk.. (and also, "old u")

Post by ralph »

Jason Hare wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:15 am
ralph wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:41 pm Thanks, and when you say long and short, do you mean

A)length of time the sound is held for?

B)the difference between "put" and "food"

C)grammatical rules long and short, which would impact modern(post levita/bachur), shva rules

Or some combination of A,B,C?
"Long" and "short" just lets us distinguish between:

kamats (long) and pataḥ (short)
tsere (long) and segol (short)
ḥolam (long) and kamats katan (short)

It's purely grammatical and has nothing to do with how long you hold the vowel or how it sounds, except that long kamats is "a" and short kamats is "o."

So,

A) no
B) no
C) yes


Also, you don't need grammatical classifications of long and short to distinguish between kamatz and patach.. because even without those classifications they can be distinguished.

Kamatz and Patach are easily distinguished because they are marked differently.

Kamatz looked like a T and Patach looks like a horizontal line!

Before you even know if it's long/short you have to know whether it's a kamatz or a patach.. And if it's a kamatz, if it's a kamatz gadol or kamatz katan.

After that you could fit them into a category of long or short. And even then i'm not sure the use of that other than determining, based on rules stated by levita, if a nearby shva is vocal or silent.
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Re: question about u -kubutz, shuruk.. (and also, "old u")

Post by Jason Hare »

How do you know which "a" vowel goes in a word without knowing if it demands long or short and which one is which?

For example, you hear the word shalóm. How do you know which mark goes on the shin? The syllable is unstressed (the stress is on the ó, as I've written), and it is an open syllable. Unaccented open syllables take a long vowel. Does it take kamats or pataḥ? You clearly need to know which.
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Re: question about u -kubutz, shuruk.. (and also, "old u")

Post by Jason Hare »

ralph wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:04 am You should learn. It is nursery level English
Is that necessary, though?
Jason Hare
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Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

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ralph
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Re: question about u -kubutz, shuruk.. (and also, "old u")

Post by ralph »

Jason Hare wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:06 pm
ralph wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:04 am You should learn{put/food}. It is nursery level English
Is that necessary, though?
No, of course you can get by without knowing (difference between "put" and "food"), but I think it's very beneficial to learn, especially when communicating with people using a lot of English to explain things, about biblical hebrew grammar, and pronunciations.

There are misconceptions about shuruk and kubutz, that you and he are helping to clear up.. and one of the misconceptions is related specifically to the difference between two vowel sounds, the one in "put" and the one in "food". On that subject it helps a lot to be familiar with that difference.
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ralph
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Re: question about u -kubutz, shuruk.. (and also, "old u")

Post by ralph »

Jason Hare wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:26 pm How do you know which "a" vowel goes in a word without knowing if it demands long or short and which one is which?

For example, you hear the word shalóm. How do you know which mark goes on the shin? The syllable is unstressed (the stress is on the ó, as I've written), and it is an open syllable. Unaccented open syllables take a long vowel. Does it take kamats or pataḥ? You clearly need to know which.
Well, note that i'm not israeli and don't have a fluency in hebrew and there are going to be big holes in my understanding..

It's a good question.. I suppose, and this isn't as good as how you'd do it, i'd look the word up in a book,or, let's say i'm trying to find out based on rules ,i'd think ok , well a particular word (not shalom), but a particular verb is paal perfect 3ms completely regular, must be a kamatz on the first letter.

If there's a rule that says that unaccented open syllables take a long vowel. That's interesting I didn't know that. I can imagine that closed unaccented syllables take a short vowel.

what do accented open syllables take?
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ducky
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Re: question about u -kubutz, shuruk.. (and also, "old u")

Post by ducky »

ralph wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:04 am By the way, Is it only Ashkenazi that has a distinction between Segol and Tsere?
The Yemenites pronounce the Segol as Patah' ("a").
Actually, it is not that they pronounce the Segol in another way, but they didn't have a Segol at all.
In the Babylonian MT, there is no sign of Segol.
And basically, Every Segol in the Tiberian MT is written as Patah' in the Babylonian MT.

********************
Long and Short vowels are Semitic terms, but they don't fit so much to the Hebrew vowels.
The Hebrew vowels, as we can see, are not about that.
I mean, just by looking at the Qamats that once comes as a "long" vowel and once comes as a "short" vowel, tells that.
Also, we can see that the verb form of "yiqtal" is with Patah' ("short") while the "yiqtol" is with Holam ("long").
How come?

So The signs represent the quality of the vowel-sound and not its length.

**Some do say that Qamats (for example) was really a case of a length-process, and there are many theories about how and why, But that is more pre-Tiberian stuff (some goes longer back to the Biblical era).
But all of this is not really important for this issue.


Anyway, the length is more about the accented place and the pattern of the word.
But the vowel itself is not a sign for that.
(therefore I used "big" and "small" - but also this is not important)
ralph wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:04 am If there's a rule that says that unaccented open syllables take a long vowel. That's interesting I didn't know that
Basically, an unaccented open syllable comes with a big vowel
(but remember the case of Qubuts/Shuruq, and Hiriq (with/out Y))
ralph wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:04 am I can imagine that closed unaccented syllables take a short vowel
Except for some words in a construct state like עץ הגפן for example (the עץ stays with Tsere).
Also except when the vowel is full (with a vowel letter) like קול גדול (the קול stays with the Holam).
ralph wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:04 am what do accented open syllables take?
Usually, it would get a big vowel.

But there are exceptions:
1. Segolites
as ילד=yeled (the first "ye" is accented and open but it has a Segol
Also words with Patah' as נער
Also the form in a longer word like ארנבת (the נבת is a Segolite form)
Also in Short Qal YQTL as ויעל (va-ya-al) (the "ya" with Patah').

2. in the words as השביעני=hish-bi-a-ni (the "a" is accented open and it has Patah')

3. also in pausal form as לקראתך (when the accented open "te" is with Segol)
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Jason Hare
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Re: question about u -kubutz, shuruk.. (and also, "old u")

Post by Jason Hare »

ralph wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:56 am
Jason Hare wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:06 pm
ralph wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:04 am You should learn{put/food}. It is nursery level English
Is that necessary, though?
No, of course you can get by without knowing (difference between "put" and "food"), but I think it's very beneficial to learn, especially when communicating with people using a lot of English to explain things, about biblical hebrew grammar, and pronunciations.

There are misconceptions about shuruk and kubutz, that you and he are helping to clear up.. and one of the misconceptions is related specifically to the difference between two vowel sounds, the one in "put" and the one in "food". On that subject it helps a lot to be familiar with that difference.
I was asking if the attempt at derisive language ("this is nursery level English," which was intended to make ducky out to be less than an infant in his use of English) were actually necessary.
Jason Hare
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Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

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ducky
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Re: question about u -kubutz, shuruk.. (and also, "old u")

Post by ducky »

Hi Jason,

It's funny, I wasn't offended by Ralph's words at all since I Don't even know what a "nursery level" is.
(And even if I did, It's really nothing).
David Hunter
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