majesty vs irregularity?

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ralph
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majesty vs irregularity?

Post by ralph »

Hebrew has some words that are irregular.. in that their form is dual but their meaning is singular. Yerushalayim, Mayim, Shamayim.

English has some words whose form is plural and meaning is can be singular or plural. Goggles, Glasses, Trousers, Pants/Underpants.

Does Hebrew have words whose form is plural but whose meaning is singular or plural, outside of "plural of majesty"? I'm interested in some examples?

And if so, then how do you know that Elohim and Adonai(with patach), when the meaning is singular, is plural of majesty, maybe it could just be examples of some of those irregulars?
Ralph Zak
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Jason Hare
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Re: majesty vs irregularity?

Post by Jason Hare »

You list "jeans" in English, so why not מִכְנָסַ֫יִם in Hebrew? The same ones in clothes happen in Hebrew, too. מִשְׁקָפַ֫יִם "glasses," תַּחְתּוֹנִים "underpants." (These latter two are not biblical words.)

We have abstract words that are plural in form but represent an abstract, like נְעוּרִים "youth," זְקוּנִים "old age," and בְּתוּלִים "virginity."

The plurals of אֱלֹהִים\אֱלֹהֵי־ and אֲדֹנֵי־ (with whatever suffix) are paired with verbs and adjectives in the singular when their meaning in singular. I don't like the word "majesty," since it isn't just a word for kings. In fact, "king" is never used in the plural in this way. I would term it something like "plural of ultimate power" or something like that. Why? The one referred to in the plural has ultimate power over the subject or possession and can decide the life (even the death?) of said subject.

This also applies to בְּעָלִים as a "plural of majesty" (yucky term), since he (or she) can decide to close the restaurant they own, to sell their vehicle, or whatever. They have ultimate power and are called "owner" in English.
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ralph
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Re: majesty vs irregularity?

Post by ralph »

A)I'm speaking about Biblical Hebrew .. Can you give biblical hebrew examples of such words that are plural in form but singular in meaning? (Other than Adonai, and Elohim).

Also ,I when I said plural.. and i'm not talking about dual form(so, not your "jeans" example) , I already listed examples of dual form, that i'm aware of.

B)Obviously when one of these nouns is used in plural form, and an individual is meant, then the verb is singular.

C) Is every example of these plural in form singular in meaning , one of the individual referred to having power? or rather, being honoured?

The English examples, jeans etc.. aren't about honour. I'm wondering if biblical hebrew has ones that aren't about honour.
Ralph Zak
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Jason Hare
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Re: majesty vs irregularity?

Post by Jason Hare »

I don't see how I could add to what I've already said (which seems to be valueless), so I'll let someone else come in.
Jason Hare
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ducky
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Re: majesty vs irregularity?

Post by ducky »

ralph wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:34 pm A)I'm speaking about Biblical Hebrew .. Can you give biblical Hebrew examples of such words that are plural in form but singular in meaning? (Other than Adonai, and Elohim).
Jason wrote you בעלים

It is about authority
בעלים
אדונים
אלהים
and the names of Gods that can get plural forms of verbs and adjectives
David Hunter
Isaac Fried
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Re: majesty vs irregularity?

Post by Isaac Fried »

ducky asserts
It is about authority
בעלים
אדונים
אלהים
I think it is about goats.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
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Jason Hare
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Re: majesty vs irregularity?

Post by Jason Hare »

Isaac Fried wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:14 am ducky asserts
It is about authority
בעלים
אדונים
אלהים
I think it is about goats.
Yes, it's goats. Goats and cows. Of course.
Jason Hare
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Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
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Isaac Fried
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Re: majesty vs irregularity?

Post by Isaac Fried »

Jason emphatically declares
Yes, it's goats. Goats and cows. Of course.
This is interesting. Are you suggesting, Jason, that 'bull' is בעל? Otherwise, where did you get the cows?

Isaac Fried, Boston University
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Last edited by Isaac Fried on Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
ralph
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Re: majesty vs irregularity?

Post by ralph »

ducky wrote: Jason wrote you בעלים
It doesn't occur anywhere in tanach, so maybe he is thinking of modern hebrew again?!

I see Baalei.. though not sure if that ever occurs with singular meaning?
ducky wrote: It is about authority
בעלים
אדונים
אלהים
and the names of Gods that can get plural forms of verbs and adjectives
Maybe about Honour - a form of emphasis..

And there's Damim.. Nothing with damim about authority, but maybe about emphasis

I see mention of Goats and Cows, in the thread, I don't know if that's meant to be a joke. Since where I am seeing it, izim is plural. e.g. Gen 27:9 And a singular one, "one male goat", Num 7:16 is "one kid of the goats. Suh-ir Izim. And as for Cows. Also, Num 19:2 I see Para - single cow.
I haven't checked all references though so maybe i'm missing something there.
Ralph Zak
ducky
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Re: majesty vs irregularity?

Post by ducky »

let's continue it in the other post which has the same comments.

**
As for goats.
I also don't know if it a joke, or that he meant to צאן which is sheep.
and it is singular form but its adjective can be plural.
(I think the English sheep is the same way).

But this is the opposite case.
we talk about a plural form that gets a singular reference.
David Hunter
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