Esther 7:4

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kwrandolph
Posts: 1253
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Esther 7:4

Post by kwrandolph »

Chris Watts wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 12:04 pm
kwrandolph wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:23 am
I read the text as written.

Karl W. Randolph.
<<<You de facto claim that the “calculated manner” that she introduced the accusation against Haman was a lie. >>>>

No I did not Karl, there is a gross misunderstanding here.
Let me bring in some evidence:
Chris Watts wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 3:19 amThe pivotal point upon which this whole verse turns, for me,, has always been this: ....I would have kept silence/I would not have said anything because....."…

a. Her comment to be silent if they were being sold as slaves is absolutely not what she would have done,
Here you accuse her of lying when she said she would be silent. I know of no other way to read your statement.

You may have misstated and said something that you didn’t intend to say. But all I can do is to react to what you actually did say.

If you don’t answer this, that’s OK.

Karl W. Randolph.
Chris Watts
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 8:00 am

Re: Esther 7:4

Post by Chris Watts »

kwrandolph wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 5:05 pm
Chris Watts wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 12:04 pm
kwrandolph wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:23 am
I read the text as written.

Karl W. Randolph.
<<<You de facto claim that the “calculated manner” that she introduced the accusation against Haman was a lie. >>>>

No I did not Karl, there is a gross misunderstanding here.
Let me bring in some evidence:
Chris Watts wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 3:19 amThe pivotal point upon which this whole verse turns, for me,, has always been this: ....I would have kept silence/I would not have said anything because....."…

a. Her comment to be silent if they were being sold as slaves is absolutely not what she would have done,
Here you accuse her of lying when she said she would be silent. I know of no other way to read your statement.

You may have misstated and said something that you didn’t intend to say. But all I can do is to react to what you actually did say.

If you don’t answer this, that’s OK.

Karl W. Randolph.
Well, since you ask so nicely let's have a chin wag since I have too much time on my hands right now.

The context within which I quoted the following: """The pivotal point upon which this whole verse turns, for me,, has always been this: ....I would have kept silence/I would not have said anything because.....""""" had to do with my difficulty in understanding her reasoning, NOT the fact that I said she would not have kept silent. I just led onto this afterwards. Her reasoning for keeping silent is difficult to translate in hebrew. If the reason went like this: "I would have kept silent but the enemy could not compensate FOR THIS type of damage that would be done to the KIng. This makes sense, it flows nicely and logically after the כי I capitalized the FOR THIS in order to lay emphasis on a way of interpreting what makes sense to me.

Now then to keep this succint and short: Please allow me to explain in a different way what it was I was driving at by offering another scenario as follows: Haman had sent letters, with the King's permission, telling the authorities to round up all the Jews for deportation and slave labour on a certain day, not for killing them but for slavery. Mordechai learned of the plan and then what? Kept silent? No he mentioned it of course to his niece, Esther, and then what? She decides to say nothing to the king and her husband? She does not approach the King and his scepter hoping that it would be extended? She does not beg the King for mercy? She remains completely silent? Mordechai tells her that nothing can be done? Mordechai does not say perhaps that maybe for this reason you have been placed here? Maybe Esther invites Haman and the king to a wine banquet and then asks why her people are being sold into slavery? This is my point, is there anything wrong with assuming this might have happened? So my point is not saying that she lied, my point is that I do not believe she would have kept silent given this different scenario, it becomes inconceivable to imagine based on the human desire to remain free, or to obtain freedom when there is nothing left to lose. I find it hard to translate this hebrew into the idea that she would be burdening the King by asking for her freedom and the freedom of her people which included Mordechai her dear Uncle no doubt. After all let's face it, it was a far greater burden, methinks, for her to trouble the King by such an accusation of Haman's betrayal and knowing also that the King approved it, this really burdened the king don't you think?

So much for succinct and short eh?

Chris watts
kwrandolph
Posts: 1253
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Esther 7:4

Post by kwrandolph »

Chris:

What you are doing here is speculating, a speculation that is very different from what actually happened. I have learned through bitter experience that speculating is dangerous.

• Esther was secluded in the harem such that she didn’t know what was happening in the kingdom

• Would Mordechai have communicated to Esther concerning a survivable event, namely slavery?

• Esther took a life threatening risk to go before the king to ask him to come to the banquet. If the king thought that Esther was interrupting important business, he could have had her killed then and there. Would Esther have taken that death defying risk for a survivable situation such as slavery?

The “keeping silent” would have included that the king and Haman would never have been invited to the first banquet.

Karl W. Randolph.
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