B-Hebrew: The Biblical Hebrew Forum

זְד֤וֹן לִבְּךָ֙ הִשִּׁיאֶ֔ךָ שֹׁכְנִ֥י בְחַגְוֵי־סֶ֖לַע מְר֣וֹם שִׁבְתּ֑וֹ אֹמֵ֣ר בְּלִבּ֔וֹ מִ֥י יוֹרִדֵ֖נִי אָֽרֶץ Obadiah 1:3

וּמִמֶּ֗גֶד אֶ֚רֶץ וּמְלֹאָ֔הּ וּרְצ֥וֹן שֹׁכְנִ֖י סְנֶ֑ה Deut 33:16

Why is this qal participle written like this? שֹׁכְנִ֥י

Thank you
Chris watts

Chris Watts wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 12:32 pm זְד֤וֹן לִבְּךָ֙ הִשִּׁיאֶ֔ךָ שֹׁכְנִ֥י בְחַגְוֵי־סֶ֖לַע מְר֣וֹם שִׁבְתּ֑וֹ אֹמֵ֣ר בְּלִבּ֔וֹ מִ֥י יוֹרִדֵ֖נִי אָֽרֶץ Obadiah 1:3

וּמִמֶּ֗גֶד אֶ֚רֶץ וּמְלֹאָ֔הּ וּרְצ֥וֹן שֹׁכְנִ֖י סְנֶ֑ה Deut 33:16

Why is this qal participle written like this? שֹׁכְנִ֥י

Thank you
Chris watts

The participle שֹׁכְנִ֥י is a masculine, plural noun in construct, referring to those who dwell in the areas mentioned in the following nouns.

The participle is not a verb in Biblical Hebrew, especially not pre-Babylonian exile Hebrew.

Karl W. Randolph.

kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 9:54 pm

Chris Watts wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 12:32 pm זְד֤וֹן לִבְּךָ֙ הִשִּׁיאֶ֔ךָ שֹׁכְנִ֥י בְחַגְוֵי־סֶ֖לַע מְר֣וֹם שִׁבְתּ֑וֹ אֹמֵ֣ר בְּלִבּ֔וֹ מִ֥י יוֹרִדֵ֖נִי אָֽרֶץ Obadiah 1:3

וּמִמֶּ֗גֶד אֶ֚רֶץ וּמְלֹאָ֔הּ וּרְצ֥וֹן שֹׁכְנִ֖י סְנֶ֑ה Deut 33:16

Why is this qal participle written like this? שֹׁכְנִ֥י

Thank you
Chris watts

The participle שֹׁכְנִ֥י is a masculine, plural noun in construct, referring to those who dwell in the areas mentioned in the following nouns.

The participle is not a verb in Biblical Hebrew, especially not pre-Babylonian exile Hebrew.

Karl W. Randolph.

Hi Karl, Yes, I was searching through the verb table....I'm not too good on the intricate details of vowel pointing so did not see this as a noun, but I wonder why a yod instead of a tsere?

(As for your comment on a participle, I always assumed that a participle is basically an ongoing verbal action that is not subject to time, it is a continuous action). Say for example : "The drifting of the ship across the sea", as opposed to the "The ship drifts/drifted/will drift). There are loads of participles in hebrew yes?

Chris watts

Hi,
Sometimes, mostly in poetic texts, participles, (and also nouns and not just) come with a suffix (can be with letter Y or W).
(Notice that it is a singular case)

For example, check Psalms 113:5 for:
המגביהי לשבת = המגביה
המשפילי לראות = המשפיל
מקימי מעפר = מקים
להושיבי עם נדיבים = להושיב (notice here that in this case it is not a construct state)
מושיבי עקרת הבית = מושיב

also in Jer. 49:16 where you see שכני, you continue reading and see תפשי

another suffix can be seen in nouns like בן and חיה for example.
for example:
Num 23:18 בן צפר = בנו צפר
Gen: 1:24 חית ארץ = חיתו ארץ
Gen 31:39 גנבת יום/לילה = גנבתי יום/לילה

Now check two cases in Ps. 114:8
and check two cases in Gen. 49:11
and another one in Ho. 10:11

****
The reason for that is not certain.
I think that most scholars see this as remnants of archaic suffix cases.
(But I guess there are more suggestions for that).
Anyway, the form itself is indeed represent a poetic style.

Chris Watts wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 5:17 am

kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 9:54 pm

Chris Watts wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 12:32 pm זְד֤וֹן לִבְּךָ֙ הִשִּׁיאֶ֔ךָ שֹׁכְנִ֥י בְחַגְוֵי־סֶ֖לַע מְר֣וֹם שִׁבְתּ֑וֹ אֹמֵ֣ר בְּלִבּ֔וֹ מִ֥י יוֹרִדֵ֖נִי אָֽרֶץ Obadiah 1:3

וּמִמֶּ֗גֶד אֶ֚רֶץ וּמְלֹאָ֔הּ וּרְצ֥וֹן שֹׁכְנִ֖י סְנֶ֑ה Deut 33:16

Why is this qal participle written like this? שֹׁכְנִ֥י

Thank you
Chris watts

The participle שֹׁכְנִ֥י is a masculine, plural noun in construct, referring to those who dwell in the areas mentioned in the following nouns.

The participle is not a verb in Biblical Hebrew, especially not pre-Babylonian exile Hebrew.

Karl W. Randolph.

Hi Karl, Yes, I was searching through the verb table....I'm not too good on the intricate details of vowel pointing so did not see this as a noun, but I wonder why a yod instead of a tsere?

Yod is the normal ending of a plural masculine noun in construct.

Chris Watts wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 5:17 am (As for your comment on a participle, I always assumed that a participle is basically an ongoing verbal action that is not subject to time, it is a continuous action).

That may be the case with modern, Israeli Hebrew. Maybe as far back as the late second temple era

Chris Watts wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 5:17 am Say for example : "The drifting of the ship across the sea", as opposed to the "The ship drifts/drifted/will drift).

Even in English, in this example, “drifting” is a noun, referring to the type of action. Now if the example had been “is drifting”, then that is the use of a compound lexeme as a verb indicating present, continuing action.

Chris Watts wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 5:17 am There are loads of participles in hebrew yes?

Chris watts

Oh man, are there ever loads of participles. However, how many times are third person, singular, masculine Qal verbs pointed as participles because that’s how the Masoretes understood Hebrew?

Karl W. Randolph.

Ducky, lots to digest here. Thank you. Will go through what you have written, thanks for the detailed explanation.

Karl, confusion alert - Looking at my Weingreen grammar tables I read the following types of nouns in Construct have a 'yod':
Singular Irregular
Singular Lamed Heh
Singular double Ayin
But, most of the plural masculine nouns have Tsere not yod, which is what I had always known, or rather believed without paying too much attention.

Chris watts

Chris Watts wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 7:21 am Karl, confusion alert - Looking at my Weingreen grammar tables I read the following types of nouns in Construct have a 'yod':
Singular Irregular
Singular Lamed Heh
Singular double Ayin
But, most of the plural masculine nouns have Tsere not yod, which is what I had always known, or rather believed without paying too much attention.

Chris watts

Chris: Tsere is not a Hebrew letter, rather it is one of the Masoretic points consisting of two horizontal dots under a letter. Or when you say “Tsere” do you mean something different?

Because I read without points, I don’t see other than the Hebrew letters.

Karl W. Randolph.

kwrandolph wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 11:18 pm

Chris Watts wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 7:21 am Karl, confusion alert - Looking at my Weingreen grammar tables I read the following types of nouns in Construct have a 'yod':
Singular Irregular
Singular Lamed Heh
Singular double Ayin
But, most of the plural masculine nouns have Tsere not yod, which is what I had always known, or rather believed without paying too much attention.

Chris watts

Chris: Tsere is not a Hebrew letter, rather it is one of the Masoretic points consisting of two horizontal dots under a letter. Or when you say “Tsere” do you mean something different?

Because I read without points, I don’t see other than the Hebrew letters.

Karl W. Randolph.

Karl Oh Karl, I know I am the dumbest one on this forum, but I think by now I have learned the difference between the Hebrew Vowel and the Hebrew Consonant. Or rather should I say - a letter with two winsy dots underneath and a letter without.

Chris watts

Chris Watts wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 3:54 am

kwrandolph wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 11:18 pm

Chris Watts wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 7:21 am Karl, confusion alert - Looking at my Weingreen grammar tables I read the following types of nouns in Construct have a 'yod':
Singular Irregular
Singular Lamed Heh
Singular double Ayin
But, most of the plural masculine nouns have Tsere not yod, which is what I had always known, or rather believed without paying too much attention.

Chris watts

Chris: Tsere is not a Hebrew letter, rather it is one of the Masoretic points consisting of two horizontal dots under a letter. Or when you say “Tsere” do you mean something different?

Because I read without points, I don’t see other than the Hebrew letters.

Karl W. Randolph.

Karl Oh Karl, I know I am the dumbest one on this forum, but I think by now I have learned the difference between the Hebrew Vowel and the Hebrew Consonant. Or rather should I say - a letter with two winsy dots underneath and a letter without.

Chris watts

Chris, my response was not to say that you are dumb, rather that I don’t understand what you mean by “most of the plural masculine nouns have Tsere not yod,” The picture that gives in my mind is of a naked Tsere sitting out there without a consonant above it. To me, that makes no sense. That’s why I asked if you mean something different.

On unpointed texts, the masculine plural in construct ends with a yod. A further point that makes your statement sound like nonesense.

Karl W. Randolph.

Karl, Let me un-complicate this please. My original question involved this word : שֹׁכְנִ֥י. I thought it was a partiiple, you corrected me and said that it was a noun. The Hireq-Yod threw me, this is why I did NOT see it as a noun but as a participle. So I went to my noun tables and noticed that neither in Weingreen, nor Kelley, nor van de Merwe is there any construct noun ending in a hireq-yod, masculine or plural, they are all tsere-yods, as I have often seen in BH (excepting for a few singular constructs which end in hireq-yod). So I was focused on the tsere, not the yod, hence the communication-cross-wires no doubt. If you look at the word following, that is indeed as expected - a tsere-yod.

PS : Just as a side note, I did not mean to say that I thought that you think that I am stupid, no no no, I meant by my comment that I am aware that I make many many mistakes on this forum, which appears to be populated with exactly that!

Chris watts