Double, Repeat, second place, or Fold?

[Galena]

Thanks to Isaac's last question he has now given me Double the workload.

Something I took for granted no longer appears that obvious, it concerns these three words:משנה ; שנים ;כפלים sometimes translated interchangeably in English versions.
A couple of scriptures where these are used.

כי לקחה מיד יהוה כפלים בכל חטאתיה Isa 40:2
...ושלמתי ראשונה משנה עונם וחטאתם Jer 16:18
אם המצא תמצא בידו הגנבה משור עד חמור עד שה חיים שנים ישלם (Ex 22:4 Eng and 22:3 Heb)

In some scriptures I can feel the subtle difference, for example when speaking about the construction of the curtains in the wilderness in Ex 26:9, KJV uses the word 'double', but one can read 'folded over' for example, which is perhaps better. However the use of this word is interchangeable and not always clear. This leads me to an observation about the choice of translation for Jeremiah 16:18 where I would use the word 'a second time', and not double. Isaiah 40:2 uses the word that means folded, repeated. I fully appreciate why the word 'Double' is used, but this has a problem because in nearly all other cases one can quantitively and objectively visualise a double portion or a double amount, but when referring to punishment this is not quantifiable, it is subjective. Surely if a man is given a 1 year sentence for theft and the judge says, this is double the punishment then will the man not be disappointed and moan, but if the 1 year sentence is given and the judge says this is half of what you should serve then is the man happier and relieved? All punishment is severe, what is double? It is for this reason that I see in Jeremiah and Isaiah the translation as twice or repeated. I also think that judging by the history of Israel and the language used in Jeremiah 16: verses 14 -16 that this pointed to a third exile, namely after 70 AD, and for 1900 years the Jewish people suffered far more as a nation than they did in the Babylonian exile. Then we see the return of the Israelites in 1947 after the longest exile in history and after the most brutal treatment in all of their history and the numbers in Israel now far outweigh both the Redemption from Egypt and certainly outweighs the return from Babylon. After all the express use of the word 'North', this points to the exile of northern Israel into Assyria, Babylon is East! Ephraim representing all of Israel and only Judah returned from Babylon.

Finally the question:
Is not this the 'repeated' exile that Jeremiah foretold in ch 16 and the 'double' punishment? Is not this the 'double' punishment in Isaiah 40:2 where afterwards '..her warfare has been 'completed' in the sense of warfare through exile rather than through physical confrontation on the battlefield? Is the use of the word 'Double' in these passages misleading?

regards
chris

[kwrandolph]

Chris:

Something I took for granted no longer appears that obvious, it concerns these three words:משנה ; שנים ;כפלים sometimes translated interchangeably in English versions.

Now can you see why it’s been decades since I last read an English translation (other than a few isolated passages with other people)? And when others read an English translation, I like to follow along in Greek and Hebrew?

Let’s look at your specific examples:

A couple of scriptures where these are used.

כי לקחה מיד יהוה כפלים בכל חטאתיה Isa 40:2

I’ve been told several times since I was young that there was a practice that when a debt was paid, that the document recording the debt was “folded over” so as to indicate that the debt was paid. So here, this is not a punishment, rather an act of mercy where the debt is paid.

I know of no case where כפל and its derivatives mean other than a folding over.

...ושלמתי ראשונה משנה עונם וחטאתם Jer 16:18

This word, משנה, has more than one meaning in English.

Genesis 41:43, 1 Samuel 23:17, 2 Kings 23:4 “second rank”, not the main one. When referring to people, can be more than one person as second rank.
Genesis 43:12, 15, Exodus 16:5, 22 “second amount”
Deuteronomy 15:18, 2 Kings 22:14 “from a year” referring to a year(s) or a period of years.
“second” in the sense of a copy in Deuteronomy 17:18, Joshua 8:32
“second” son, several verses.

Interesting, it appears that this is a word that doesn’t have its final ה changed to a ת when in construct usage.

So which meaning is to be understood in this verse? I suspect it refers to years.

אם המצא תמצא בידו הגנבה משור עד חמור עד שה חיים שנים ישלם (Ex 22:4 Eng and 22:3 Heb)

Here if a thief has stolen one sheep, he needs to repay with two sheep. Likewise with any animal that is stolen.

…
Finally the question:…

regards
chris

Looking at the definitions of the words, does that answer your question?

Karl W. Randolph.

[Galena]

Karl, you have given me a little more insight into כפל. However am I to assume that when a rabbi or native hebrew speaker reads this in Isa 40:2 he will understand it to mean 'severe punishment' on the surface, then perceive the subtle act of 'debt cancelled' underneath?

שנים speaks for itself, hardly room for misunderstanding here.

Unfortunately the choice of the word משנה in Jeremiah 16:18 does not make anything clearer. Years does not seem to make sense, plus words such as כי , על and the such like between these two words ראשונה עונם opens up the possibility: "for a second time" to be understood (years are implied in this idea I think), and I feel the historical context also allows for this, otherwise one would expect כפל to be used again as in Isaiah 40:2. Your reference to Deut 15:18 certainly could be translated as "...he has been as you having a second servant around the house..." and 2 Kings 22:14 has to be understood within a lost cultural context I suppose? Various translations ranging from second quarter of Jerusalem to new quarter to second part of Jerusalem. Something inferior to the main part of Jerusalem, Perhaps?

Kind regards
Chris

[kwrandolph]

Karl, you have given me a little more insight into כפל. However am I to assume that when a rabbi or native hebrew speaker reads this in Isa 40:2 he will understand it to mean 'severe punishment' on the surface, then perceive the subtle act of 'debt cancelled' underneath?

Chris: there have been no native speakers of Biblical Hebrew for over two and a half millennia. What a modern speaker of modern Israeli may make of this verse, I don’t know. I don’t know modern Israeli, except that it looks strange when I see it in a newspaper and it makes no sense when I try to read it. Yiddish is easier to understand, much easier.

That’s why I ignore Isaac Fried, don’t bother to read his postings. Once in a while he comes up with a pearl, but sifting through a truck load of pea gravel to find a few pearls is not worth it.

Unfortunately the choice of the word משנה in Jeremiah 16:18 does not make anything clearer. Years does not seem to make sense, plus words such as כי , על and the such like between these two words ראשונה עונם opens up the possibility: "for a second time" to be understood (years are implied in this idea I think), and I feel the historical context also allows for this, otherwise one would expect כפל to be used again as in Isaiah 40:2. Your reference to Deut 15:18 certainly could be translated as "...he has been as you having a second servant around the house..." and 2 Kings 22:14 has to be understood within a lost cultural context I suppose? Various translations ranging from second quarter of Jerusalem to new quarter to second part of Jerusalem. Something inferior to the main part of Jerusalem, Perhaps?

Kind regards
Chris

Chris: we can speculate all we want, but to keep it from getting out of hand, we should start with what is known. The written word (did they have different pronunciations? We don’t know) שנה had two different meanings—“year” and “second”. The written word משנה is derived from both. When referring to years, משנה refers to a group of years, or could be translated as “at that time” when preceded with a ב prefix. When referring to “second”, we find that it’s used in contexts where we in English would use different terms, but the basic action of being second can still be recognized. When looking at a new passage, our question is, “Can one of the recognized actions that we know are connected with the term fit this context?” If “yes”, go with that. Don’t make up new meanings just to fit your speculations.

Yes, I recognize that some of these things could be true. But we have terms with known meanings that fit the contexts in which they are found, I prefer to go with those. Just because they don’t fit English well is not an excuse, after all, we’re not discussing English.

Karl W. Randolph.

[Galena]

Hallo Karl, I take your points completely. Unfortunately my knowledge of hebrew is not anywhere near the place where I would like it to be, I did not realise that משנה could mean a number/group of years while I was aware that שנה meant year I just did not connect this. As a side note I certainly do not want to take a theory and find evidence to support that, but my bias towards "second" is purely based upon the prophetical context of the historical occurrences now and in the past, coupling this with the general usage of this word as "second' I did think I was making a reasonable case, at least both yours and mine are better, I believe, than the word "double". Thanking you for your helpful input though.

Just a point though: you said<<<Chris: there have been no native speakers of Biblical Hebrew for over two and a half millennia>>> I know this but the rabbis certainly can read their scriptures with fluency and quite some understanding that, despite not being a spoken language, their ear for it far surpasses a non Israeli. That's why I asked.

Another quick thought, is there anywhere in scripture where this word can mean, emphatically, a number of years? I ask, but my only definitive source for this is even-shoshan, so if you something else I would be grateful to hear. Thankyou.

Kindest regards
chris

[kwrandolph]

…Just a point though: you said<<<Chris: there have been no native speakers of Biblical Hebrew for over two and a half millennia>>> I know this but the rabbis certainly can read their scriptures with fluency and quite some understanding that, despite not being a spoken language, their ear for it far surpasses a non Israeli. That's why I asked.

You can’t count on that. On the contrary, my experience in dealing with scholars whose main exposure is to modern Israeli Hebrew, on average actually do poorer in their comprehension of Biblical Hebrew than those scholars who know only Biblical Hebrew.

Another quick thought, is there anywhere in scripture where this word can mean, emphatically, a number of years? I ask, but my only definitive source for this is even-shoshan, so if you something else I would be grateful to hear. Thankyou.

Kindest regards
chris

What I did was to take my computer and tell it to show me all the places where משנה is found, then see how it is used. I found two main patterns—one for second, the other for years.

This is one of the advantages of having a program with files locally on one’s own computer. With both the software and Bible texts for free from http://www.crosswire.org there’s no excuse not to have the Bible in all your computers, including your smart phone, tablet computer, laptop and desktop computers. I have it on my iPod Touch, Android phone, Windows™, Mac and Linux computers.

Karl W. Randolph.