Does this verb exist ?

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Kenneth Greifer
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Does this verb exist ?

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

My dictionary has a verb hay nun yud alef הניא that it says is a hiphil form of a verb, but I don't remember exactly where I saw it. It said it means to frustrate or refuse. Does this verb exist because my dictionary has a lot of unusual words?
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ducky
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Re: Does this verb exist ?

Post by ducky »

Check root נוא
David Hunter
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Jason Hare
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Re: Does this verb exist ?

Post by Jason Hare »

HALOT
נוא
hif: pf. הֵנִיא; impf. יָנִיא‎, וַיָּנִיאוּ‎, תְּנִיאוּן‎: —1. with acc. to disourage, [sic, discourage?] express disapproval of someone (:: הֶחֱרִישׁ‎ 2) Nu 30:6, 9, 12; with מִן‎ 32:7Q, 9; —2. to frustrate (plans) Ps 33:10 (cf. Loewe JSS 13 (1968):138ff); —Ps 1415 יָנִי‎, many MSS יָנִיא‎, ? rd. יְנָא‎ (נאה pi.).
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יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
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Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Does this verb exist ?

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

David and Jason,
Thanks.
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kwrandolph
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Re: Does this verb exist ?

Post by kwrandolph »

The meaning of “to frustrate” must be modern Hebrew. When we look at its uses in Tanakh, Numbers 30:6, 9, 12, 32:7, Psalm 33:10, it has the idea of repudiating, in the Hiphil “to cause to repudiate” i.e. causing not to fulfill the contract that had been made, causing the peoples’ thoughts to be rejected.

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Re: Does this verb exist ?

Post by Jason Hare »

kwrandolph wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:16 am The meaning of “to frustrate” must be modern Hebrew.
No. The word "frustrate" in modern Hebrew is לְתַסְכֵּל ("frustration" is תִּסְכּוּל).

Psalm 33:10
יְֽהוָ֗ה הֵפִ֥יר עֲצַת־גֹּויִ֑ם הֵ֝נִ֗יא מַחְשְׁבֹ֥ות עַמִּֽים׃

This is the verse referenced in HALOT. It has nothing to do with modern Hebrew. It has to do with how you understand what God is doing here. He is frustrating (הֵפִיר) the council of the nations and frustrating (הֵנִיא) the thoughts of the peoples. These two words are used here in parallelism, and they are referring to the same thing. You can see the parallelism in the attached image, with יְהוָה separated off to the top right as the subject.

In English, "frustrate someone's plans" means to hinder their intentions, to keep them from doing what they wanted to do. That's the meaning here.
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יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
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kwrandolph
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Re: Does this verb exist ?

Post by kwrandolph »

Jason Hare wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:45 am Psalm 33:10
יְֽהוָ֗ה הֵפִ֥יר עֲצַת־גֹּויִ֑ם הֵ֝נִ֗יא מַחְשְׁבֹ֥ות עַמִּֽים׃

This is the verse referenced in HALOT. It has nothing to do with modern Hebrew. It has to do with how you understand what God is doing here. He is frustrating (הֵפִיר) the council of the nations and frustrating (הֵנִיא) the thoughts of the peoples. These two words are used here in parallelism, and they are referring to the same thing. You can see the parallelism in the attached image, with יְהוָה separated off to the top right as the subject.

In English, "frustrate someone's plans" means to hinder their intentions, to keep them from doing what they wanted to do. That's the meaning here.
This is an example of the sloppy lexicography that turned me off on Gesenius and BDB. הפיר comes from a root with the idea of voiding an agreement or treaty, often used in the Hophal of causing a treaty to be void. Here it’s in Hiphil, God causes to void the advice of the nations. God also causes to repudiate (refuse to accept or be associated with, deny the truth or validity of) the reckonings of the peoples. The parallelism adds to the idea, not a repeat. I don’t see where “frustrate” comes in this verse.

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Jason Hare
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Re: Does this verb exist ?

Post by Jason Hare »

kwrandolph wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:37 pm This is an example of the sloppy lexicography that turned me off on Gesenius and BDB. הפיר comes from a root with the idea of voiding an agreement or treaty, often used in the Hophal of causing a treaty to be void. Here it’s in Hiphil, God causes to void the advice of the nations. God also causes to repudiate (refuse to accept or be associated with, deny the truth or validity of) the reckonings of the peoples. The parallelism adds to the idea, not a repeat. I don’t see where “frustrate” comes in this verse.

Karl W. Randolph.
Well, my grandmother used to say: "God says it. I believe it. That settles it." I guess you expect the same kind of devotion. If you say it means that, I guess you're right and everyone else is wrong and sloppy.
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יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
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kwrandolph
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Re: Does this verb exist ?

Post by kwrandolph »

Jason Hare wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:42 pm Well, my grandmother used to say: "God says it. I believe it. That settles it." I guess you expect the same kind of devotion.
Are you crazy? I’m just a human who makes mistakes. Sometimes I go down wrong paths. People on this list have caught some of my mistakes.
Jason Hare wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:42 pmIf you say it means that, I guess you're right and everyone else is wrong and sloppy.
Just pick up a concordance and look up how words are actually used. That’s all I did.

Don’t depend on translations.

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Re: Does this verb exist ?

Post by Jonathan Beck »

Just pick up a concordance and look up how words are actually used. That’s all I did.

Don’t depend on translations.
What do you think a concordance is? A translation of words according to their contexts. C'mon now.

Unless, of course, you can read a Hebrew concordance, which would not include an English translation of the Hebrew word.

I'm back, people! :)

Jonathan
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