B-Hebrew: The Biblical Hebrew Forum

Isaac,

First of all, I would like to say that I think my translations of Isaiah 53:2 are kind of messed up, and I need to fix them, but I think that in poetry a disease can be crushed. It is not meant literally. Sometimes, the word "crushed" is used about people, even though they weren't literally crushed.

Isaac,

I have your translation on page 175 already. I just noticed it.

Isaac,
Your translation "the L-rd desired his crushing, He made him sick..." is on page 125 of the excerpt. I was looking at the page number of the whole book by mistake.

Kenneth Greifer wrote:Karl,

I explained on pages 111-113 why I think Isaiah 53:8 could be about Hezekiah being taken from oppression and from judgment.

Isaiah 52:8 starts with “He was taken from restraint and judgment…” in other words, those going against him did so extralegally. The verse further mentions that “…he was severed from the land of the living…” clearly refers to someone being killed, not a natural death (i.e. even early death by disease). The reason for his death is listed as his people’s rebellion being applied to him. That verse most certainly doesn’t apply to King Hezekiah.

The next verse sort of clinches it: when he died, he was with the wicked, but when he was dead he was with the rich.

Kenneth Greifer wrote:I gave more than one possible explanation because Isaiah 53 is a poetic description of a person's life experiences and could be understood different ways. You skipped the best proofs that Isaiah 53 is about King Hezekiah, Isaiah 53:10 and 53:12.

Verse 10, “And the Lord desired his wounding crushing, if you place his life a guilt offering, he will see seed, he will cause to lengthen days, and the Lord’s desire will succeed in his hands.”

Verse 12, “For that reason I will apportion to him among the many, and he’ll apportion spoils with the powerful, because which he emptied his life unto death, and he was numbered with the rebels, and he lifted up the error of many and interceded for rebels.”

You need to include verse 11 to get the full picture:

Verse 11, “Because of his life’s trouble, he will cause to see, he’ll fill with his knowledge, my just slave will cause to justify many and will carry away their perversions.”

When all three verses are put together, we see this “slave” doing things that no mere human can accomplish.

Hezekiah was not killed with wicked, only to be put into a rich man’s grave after death, as described in verse 9. Hezekiah was not taken away from the restraint of law and judgment, as was this man verse 8. Hezekiah was not the just slave who justified many, he couldn’t justify himself, let alone many others verse 11.

Kenneth Greifer wrote:Also, about Isaiah 53:2, since a root sucks up water, poetically, it could be called "a sucker" and not refer to the unwanted growth from a tree root, but just any root. I discuss that on page 80. I should have written that possible translation out separately and not in a paragraph.

Roots go down, they don’t rise up. Further, in verse two, “root” is mentioned separately.

It looks as if you are throwing out all sorts of ideas, to see which will stick, like throwing spaghetti onto a wall to see which will stick. But your many words end up being speculation upon speculation that end up being unconvincing.

Karl W. Randolph.

Karl,

I don't think I said that a root rises up from dry ground literally, but that is how the person or whatever is being described. That person, for example, could have risen up like a root from dry ground without any form or glory. The person is just being compared to a root rising up from dry ground because a root from dry ground would be shriveled up and without anything pleasant like a plant without leaves. It is also possible that the person or whatever is being compared to a root from dry ground without rising up, but the word "from" makes it sound like the root is rising up from the ground and is not just in dry ground.

Being buried with a rich man, i.e., in his grave, is mentioned as though unusual or unexpected for the individual in the prophecy. This was not unusual in the case of Hezekiah. He was himself a rich man, as well as king, so he would be buried that way as a matter of course. If the traditional Christian view of the passage is correct, that it refers to Jesus Christ, then this was unusual. Jesus was a poor man in his earthly life, but was indeed buried in a rich man's tomb (Joseph of Arimathea).

Dear Kenneth:

You are still struggling to get anything, anything but the clear reading of the text.

King Hezekiah was not violently killed, rather he died a natural death.

King Hezekiah was not with the wicked when he died, this “slave” was.

King Hezekiah was not whipped of beaten, this “slave” was.

Not only was this “slave” whipped, but there’s healing for us in that fact.

While Hezekiel was considered a just king, he didn’t cause others to be considered just.

Because Hezekiah was king, he wasn’t abandoned, this “slave” was.

There are more differences between what happened to King Hezekiah and what is described for this “slave”. Therefore King Hezekiah can’t be the subject of t his passage.

In response to this discussion that you posted, I made a quick and dirty translation of Isaiah 52:13–53:12. I invite you to read it and tell all of us all the places where it is wrong. Give it your best shot. Shoot it down. It’s not that long. It should be easy for you to find all the errors in it.

Karl W. Randolph.