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Re: On the subject of accuracy of the masoretic vowel tradition. May be of interesting to kwrandolph
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:10 am
by Isaac Fried
Why do you think there is a dagesh in the letter
ת of
וְשַׁבְתִּי of Ps. 23:6?
Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
Re: On the subject of accuracy of the masoretic vowel tradition. May be of interesting to kwrandolph
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:08 pm
by Jason Hare
Isaac Fried wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:10 am
Why do you think there is a dagesh in the letter
ת of
וְשַׁבְתִּי of Ps. 23:6?
Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
After a silent sheva, the
begedkefet letters are hard. The presence of the dagesh demonstrates that the sheva is silent.
Re: On the subject of accuracy of the masoretic vowel tradition. May be of interesting to kwrandolph
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:40 pm
by Jason Hare
SteveMiller wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:52 pm
Isaac Fried wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:55 pm
Unfortunately I have not seen yet not even one single example of a "corrected" niqud.
Hi Isaac,
I think this is an example of a corrected nikud:
Ps 23:6b
וְשַׁבְתִּ֥י בְּבֵית־יְ֜הוָ֗ה לְאֹ֣רֶךְ יָמִֽים
And I will dwell in the house of the Lord for the length of days.
The way the verb
וְשַׁבְתִּ֥י is voweled, it means "and I will return", which doesn't make sense.
All translations translate it as "and I will dwell", which would be
וְשִׁבְתִּי, literally "and I to dwell in the house of the Lord for the length of days."
I think it should be
וְשָׁבַֽתִּי "and I will rest ...".
Well, literally, "And-dwelling-mine in-house-of-YHWH to-length-of days."
I agree that we should read it as
vəšiḇtî rather than as
vəšaḇtî.
Re: On the subject of accuracy of the masoretic vowel tradition. May be of interesting to kwrandolph
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:10 pm
by Isaac Fried
Jason writes
After a silent sheva, the begedkefet letters are hard. The presence of the dagesh demonstrates that the sheva is silent
Conversely, I say. The begedkefet letters are hard because they happen to carry in them for some reason a dagesh.
Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
Re: On the subject of accuracy of the masoretic vowel tradition. May be of interesting to kwrandolph
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:15 pm
by SteveMiller
Thanks Jason!
Since we are on the subject of vowels, here is a question I have had for a while.
The 2ms pronoun suffix is ךָ֙, while the 2fs suffix is ךְ, differing only in vowels.
Why does the 2ms pronoun suffix often appear with the shevah rather than the qametz?
i.e.
Ps 63:7 אִם־זְכַרְתִּ֥יךָ עַל־יְצוּעָ֑י בְּ֜אַשְׁמֻר֗וֹת אֶהְגֶּה־בָּֽךְ׃
Why is the last word, bach, not bechah?
This is so common, that I don't think it could be a mistake.
Re: On the subject of accuracy of the masoretic vowel tradition. May be of interesting to kwrandolph
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:29 pm
by Jason Hare
Isaac Fried wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:10 pm
Jason writes
After a silent sheva, the begedkefet letters are hard. The presence of the dagesh demonstrates that the sheva is silent
Conversely, I say. The begedkefet letters are hard because they happen to carry in them for some reason a dagesh.
Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
"For some reason" isn't very systematic. The reasons have been laid out in all grammars of the language. It's not just some random unknown reason.
Re: On the subject of accuracy of the masoretic vowel tradition. May be of interesting to kwrandolph
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:48 pm
by Jason Hare
SteveMiller wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:15 pm
Thanks Jason!
Since we are on the subject of vowels, here is a question I have had for a while.
The 2ms pronoun suffix is
ךָ֙, while the 2fs suffix is
ךְ, differing only in vowels.
Why does the 2ms pronoun suffix often appear with the shevah rather than the qametz?
i.e.
Ps 63:7
אִם־זְכַרְתִּ֥יךָ עַל־יְצוּעָ֑י בְּ֜אַשְׁמֻר֗וֹת אֶהְגֶּה־בָּֽךְ׃
Why is the last word,
bach, not
bechah?
This is so common, that I don't think it could be a mistake.
Inflection of the prepositions (Paradigm 20). The prepositions, which are considered nouns, take the suffixes in the manner of nouns. The suffixes of the prepositions are generally those of the nouns; however, there are a fair number of exceptions, especially with the primitive prepositions. With some of these prepositions, in the 2nd f. sing. and the 1st pl., we have ◌ָ instead of the ◌ֵ of the noun. In the 2nd f. sg. we have לָךְ (primitive form la, § b), which contrasts with סוּסֵךְ and (prob. on the analogy of לָךְ) בָּךְ, עִמָּךְ, אִתָּךְ, אֹתָךְ (cf. הִנָּךְ and עוֹדָךְ, § 102k); but we have מִמֵּךְ and בֵּינֵךְ (אֵינֵךְ § 102k). The pausal form of the 2nd m. also takes ◌ָ֑ךְ (בָּ֑ךְ, לָ֑ךְ, עִמָּ֑ךְ, אִתָּ֑ךְ, אֹתָ֑ךְ) whilst in the noun it takes ◌ֶ֑ךָ (on the analogy of ל״ה nouns, § 94c). In the 1st pl., unlike סוּסֵ֫נוּ, we find לָ֫נוּ and (probably on the analogy of לָ֫נוּ) בָּ֫נוּ, עִמָּ֫נוּ, אִתָּ֫נוּ, אֹתָ֫נוּ; but we also find מִמֶּ֫נּוּ (הִנֵּ֑נוּ, הִנֶּ֫נּוּ, הִנְנוּ). In the 3rd pl. the prepositions generally have the suffix ◌ָם like the nouns (סוּסָם); but a number of prepositions take, either exclusively or alternatively, the suffix ◌ְהֶם. We find בָּהֶם, בָּם (both in a single verse, Lv 11.43); לָהֶם; כָּהֵם (ṣeré, § c, 3rd n.); עִמָּהֶם, עִמָּם; אֶתְהֶם occurs less often than אֹתָם.
Paul Joüon and T. Muraoka, A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew (Roma: Pontificio Istituto Biblico, 2006), 312–313.
Are you aware that the
-aḵ ending is the 2ms ending in Aramaic? Normally, vowels revert to a more ancient arrangement when words appear in pause.
Re: On the subject of accuracy of the masoretic vowel tradition. May be of interesting to kwrandolph
Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:56 pm
by Isaac Fried
Jason writes
"For some reason" isn't very systematic. The reasons have been laid out in all grammars of the language. It's not just some random unknown reason.
The begedkefet distribution is random. In Gen. 2:3 we read
שָׁבַת shavat, but in Ex. 16:25 we read
שַׁבָּת shabat.
Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
Re: On the subject of accuracy of the masoretic vowel tradition. May be of interesting to kwrandolph
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:33 am
by Jason Hare
Isaac Fried wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:56 pm
The begedkefet distribution is random. In Gen. 2:3 we read
שָׁבַת shavat, but in Ex. 16:25 we read
שַׁבָּת shabat.
That isn't random at all. The
dagesh in
שַׁבָּת šabbāṯ is
dagesh forte (דגש חזק). It is part of the noun pattern (like
גַּנָּן gannān and
קַשָּׁת qaššāṯ). There's nothing random about it. The pattern here is CaCCāC (where C is a consonant, a is
pataḥ, and ā is
kamats). By this right, the same pattern is filled by words like
רַקְדָּן raqdān, in which the two internal consonants (CC) are not the same letter.
If someone doesn't operate from the assumption that there is no such thing as
dagesh forte and
dagesh lene, the entire system is clear and sensible. It isn't "random" by any stretch of the imagination.
You cannot really think that
שָׁבַת "he rested" (a verbal pattern) is the same as
שַׁבָּת "(day of) rest" (a noun pattern). You cannot read these two words and think they are the same word with any seriousness. The
dagesh is clearly part of the noun.
Re: On the subject of accuracy of the masoretic vowel tradition. May be of interesting to kwrandolph
Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 2:27 pm
by Isaac Fried
Jason writes,
The dagesh is clearly part of the noun
There is no such thing as a dagesh being "clearly part of the noun". Whatever is in the noun is "clearly part of the noun".
Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com