Exodus 2 - Strange Occurrences

Discussion must focus on the Hebrew text (including text criticism) and its ancient translations, not on archaeology, modern language translations, or theological controversies.
Forum rules
Members will observe the rules for respectful discourse at all times!
Please sign all posts with your first and last (family) name.
kwrandolph
Posts: 1161
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Exodus 2 - Strange Occurrences

Post by kwrandolph »

Jason Hare wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:55 am It is not את שור. It's את שור אחיך.


What these verses show is that the accusative marker את does not automatically make the following noun definite. Look at the contexts. The contexts show that we are dealing with indefinite objects.
Jason Hare wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:55 amSince אחיך is definite by virtue of the possessive suffix (it means "the ox of your brother"), the entire string (שור אחיך) is definite and takes את as a direct object.


You’re from the Midwest, so you recognize the phrase “That dawg don’t hunt”. In all languages, direct objects are not necessarily definite. The addition of the accusative marker doesn’t change that fact.

Furthermore, the addition of a possessive suffix doesn’t change what is in context an indefinite object into a definite object.
Jason Hare wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:55 amDefiniteness in Hebrew is not dependent on English translation.


Of course not. That’s why translations are not evidence on this forum.

But definiteness is dependent on context.
Jason Hare wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:55 amDefiniteness works differently between languages, and this phrase is certainly definite in Hebrew,


How can it be definite when dealing with an indefinite subject?
Jason Hare wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:55 amas is בת לוי — because לוי is a proper name and definite by nature, and בת is in construct with it.
David was “son of Jesse”, not “the son of Jesse” as he had seven brothers. Jonathan was “son of Saul” the king, not “the son of Saul” as he had three brothers. In both cases, and more, that the subject is in construct with a proper name does not make it definite.

In all of the examples above, the definite article ה prefix is missing.

The examples above again illustrate what I wrote earlier, that those who live in Israel, who speak, read and write modern Israeli Hebrew better than Biblical Hebrew, tend to be more formulaic in their understanding of Biblical Hebrew. The arguments with which I disaree concerning what is definite vs. indefinite are being determined by formula, and not by what is written in the text.

Karl W. Randolph.
Isaac Fried
Posts: 1677
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: Exodus 2 - Strange Occurrences

Post by Isaac Fried »

Jason writes
it's also odd that Yocheved is called simply בַּת־לֵוִי "the daughter of Levi," as if she were his direct daughter and his only one. Levi was some 350 years before her birth, so we are given to understand this as "a descendent of Levi," but it's written as if it were definite: "the daughter of Levi."
Yes, indeed, the combination בַּת־לֵוִי is a סמיכות and hence a single noun, bringing NIV to correctly translate it as "a Levite woman."
The אֶת in אֶת-בַּת-לֵוִי is possibly to stress the fact that he endeavored to look for a wife specifically within his own tribe, possibly truer believers.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
Jemoh66
Posts: 293
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:03 pm

Re: Exodus 2 - Strange Occurrences

Post by Jemoh66 »

Jason Hare wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:13 am
Jemoh66 wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:18 am To Jason I would say it's not odd at all.
Sometimes I use the word "odd" (and similar terms) to mean that something strikes my fancy or simply jumps out at me. I realize that there are explanations for such things, but if we are looking only at the context, it is "odd" in that it cries out to be explained, to have a justification brought to bear. That's really what I meant by it.
Gotcha 👍
Jonathan E Mohler
Studying for a MA in Intercultural Studies
Baptist Bible Theological Seminary
Jemoh66
Posts: 293
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:03 pm

Re: Exodus 2 - Strange Occurrences

Post by Jemoh66 »

Jason, I found this interesting tid bit in Ruth Rabbah.
"And Naomi had a kinsman (moda') of her husband's, a mighty man of valor (Ruth 2:1)"... "Of the family of Elimelech, and his name was Boaz (Ruth 2:1)": the wicked precede with their name [i.e.] "Goliath was his name (1 Samuel 17:4)", "Nabal was his name (1 Samuel 25:3)", "Sheba, the son of Bichri, was his name (2 Samuel 20:1)". But the righteous precede with "name" [i.e.] "and his name was Kish (1 Samuel 9:1)", "and his name was Saul (1 Samuel 9:2)", "and his name was Jesse (1 Samuel 17:12)", "and his name was Mordechai (Esther 2:5)", "and his name was Elkanah (1 Samuel 1:1)", "and his name was Boaz".
Jonathan E Mohler
Studying for a MA in Intercultural Studies
Baptist Bible Theological Seminary
Jason Hare
Posts: 917
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:07 am
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
Contact:

Re: Exodus 2 - Strange Occurrences

Post by Jason Hare »

Jemoh66 wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:41 pm Jason, I found this interesting tid bit in Ruth Rabbah.
"And Naomi had a kinsman (moda') of her husband's, a mighty man of valor (Ruth 2:1)"... "Of the family of Elimelech, and his name was Boaz (Ruth 2:1)": the wicked precede with their name [i.e.] "Goliath was his name (1 Samuel 17:4)", "Nabal was his name (1 Samuel 25:3)", "Sheba, the son of Bichri, was his name (2 Samuel 20:1)". But the righteous precede with "name" [i.e.] "and his name was Kish (1 Samuel 9:1)", "and his name was Saul (1 Samuel 9:2)", "and his name was Jesse (1 Samuel 17:12)", "and his name was Mordechai (Esther 2:5)", "and his name was Elkanah (1 Samuel 1:1)", "and his name was Boaz".
I wanted to just hit "like," but we don't have a "like" button. :)

I'm not sure if this is consistent, but it would be interesting if it were so.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian
Isaac Fried
Posts: 1677
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: Exodus 2 - Strange Occurrences

Post by Isaac Fried »

talmid quotes
"Of the family of Elimelech, and his name was Boaz (Ruth 2:1)"
Obviously, בֹּעַז = בּוֹ עז

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
Post Reply