When was the book of Daniel written?

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Jason Hare
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Re: When was the book of Daniel written?

Postby Jason Hare » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:42 am

Steve,

How can you, apparently by divine fiat, simply declare that the JPS is wrong in that verse in Zechariah 9:9? Is it because you use the NT to determine what is translated corrected in the Hebrew Bible?

MP: Whatever is written in the NT overrides all Hebrew language usage.
mP: Matthew says there were two animals.
∴ There were two animals!

Is that how we should investigate the Hebrew language? I just don't understand what's going on here. Please, tell me that I'm wrong. How did you come to the conclusion that "even" is not an acceptable translation of ו... under the right circumstances?
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel

kwrandolph
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Re: When was the book of Daniel written?

Postby kwrandolph » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:28 am

Jemoh66 wrote:I tend to agree with Steve on the division of the 70 weeks. I think the text supports this. The NET Bible has what I think a very decent rendering of this passage.


I see major problems with this NET translation

24 “Seventy weeks have been determined

concerning your people and your holy city


Basically, what you are saying is that Daniel’s prophesy is wrong, that it wasn’t just seventy sevens of years, rather seventy sevens of years + a large, indeterminate number of years that aren’t counted. You are forced into that interpretation because your other option is to say that Daniel’s prophesy is false because the destruction of Jerusalem didn’t happen in a period right after Jesus’ resurrection. I see seventy sevens as seventy sevens, a unit, now let’s see how that lines up with history.

to put an end to rebellion,

to bring sin to completion,

to atone for iniquity,

to bring in perpetual righteousness,

to seal up the prophetic vision,

and to anoint a most holy place.


According to New Testament theology, this is what Jesus did in his life, death and resurrection.

25 So know and understand:

From the issuing of the command to restore and rebuild

Jerusalem until an anointed one, a prince arrives,

there will be a period of seven weeks and sixty-two weeks.


I don’t know of a single place in Tanakh where two dissimilar numbers like this are added together to make a third unit. Now it’s possible that I didn’t make note of it because I wasn’t looking for it, but unless other examples can be shown from within Tanakh, this addition is wrong.

… 26 Now after the sixty-two weeks,

an anointed one will be cut off and have nothing.


That the 62 sevens are listed here separately indicates that it was never intended to be part of the 7 + 62 sevens.

As for the city and the sanctuary,

the people of the coming prince will destroy them.

But his end will come speedily like a flood.


“His” grammatically can refer to the city and sanctuary. “Speedily” is not in the verse.

Until the end of the war that has been decreed

there will be destruction.


This is an awkward translation. “Until the end, destructive war has been decreed.”

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one week.


This translation is wrong. הגביר is the hiphil, causative form of גבר that has the idea of mastering, overcoming. This is not confirming, rather it’s imposing.

“With” is not in the verse.

We could say “seven years he (the people) will impose a covenant to many”

But in the middle of that week

he will bring sacrifices and offerings to a halt.

On the wing of abominations will come one who destroys,


One interpretation I’ve heard is that the Roman standards had wings on them. They were an abomination because they represented a false god.

until the decreed end is poured out on the one who destroys.”


This last line is admittedly difficult to understand and translate.

The many problems in this translation makes me reject it and I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone.

I suspect that some of the problems in this passage are the result of a theology that insists on certain results. I don’t share that theology. That theology also has problems with history.

Ezra came to Jerusalem 13 years before Nehemiah was ordered to rebuild Jerusalem. Before Nehemiah came, there was the temple and a scattering of houses among the ruins. After he finished, Jerusalem was a fortified city with a decent population. Before Ezra came to Jerusalem, he already had a reputation as a scholar and leader, he was no spring chicken. According to Jewish history, this same Ezra presided over the Great Assembly that was held about 400 BC. If Ezra arrived in Jerusalem about 440 BC, there’s no problem with seeing him at about 70 years old with enough energy to lead the Great Assembly in about 400 BC.

If we accept that Nehemiah was ordered to rebuild Jerusalem about 415 BC ± a few years, then Jesus’ death is within the margin of error for 62 sevens of years + later. Then there’s no problem in recognizing that the ending of the 70 sevens of years concluded with the Romans taking seven years to impose Pax Romana on the land and people. Then there’s a clue to who was the anointed leader who came 49 years later.

In short, if we take Daniel’s prophesy at face value, then it fits history within history’s margin of error.

Karl W. Randolph.

R.J. Furuli
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Re: When was the book of Daniel written?

Postby R.J. Furuli » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:51 am

K.W. Randolph wrote:

If we accept that Nehemiah was ordered to rebuild Jerusalem about 415 BC ± a few years, then Jesus’ death is within the margin of error for 62 sevens of years + later. Then there’s no problem in recognizing that the ending of the 70 sevens of years concluded with the Romans taking seven years to impose Pax Romana on the land and people. Then there’s a clue to who was the anointed leader who came 49 years later.

In short, if we take Daniel’s prophesy at face value, then it fits history within history’s margin of error.


The year 415 BCE as the time when Nehemiah started to build (the Hebrew word בָּנָ֜ה means "build, not "rebuild.") is impossible. The traditional date for the 20th year of Artaxerxes I (Nehemiah 2:1-11) is 445 BCE. This date is very old, and it has been repeated from professor to student, from this student when he became professor to his student therough the decades. I am not aware of any study for the past 50 years where the business and historical- cuneiform tablets from Babylonia and Persepolis that give dates, together with the relevant astronomical tablets have been studied. The 1800 years old tables of Persian kings of Claudius Ptolemy are still the basis for 445 as year 20 of Artaxerxes I.

I have made a study of the mentioned historical- and business tablets and as well as of the astronomical ones. (My study of 413 pages was published in 2012.) There are very strong reasons to believe that Artaxerxes I started his reign in 475/74, ten years before the year of the traditional chronology. And there are equally strong reasons to believe that he reigned for 51 years and not the 41 years of the traditional chronology. If this is correct, year 20 of Artaxerxes I is 455/54.


Best regards,

Rolf J. Furuli
Stavern
Norway

kwrandolph
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Re: When was the book of Daniel written?

Postby kwrandolph » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:51 pm

R.J. Furuli wrote:
K.W. Randolph wrote:

In short, if we take Daniel’s prophesy at face value, then it fits history within history’s margin of error.


The year 415 BCE as the time when Nehemiah started to build (the Hebrew word בָּנָ֜ה means "build, not "rebuild.") is impossible. The traditional date for the 20th year of Artaxerxes I (Nehemiah 2:1-11) is 445 BCE. This date is very old, and it has been repeated from professor to student, from this student when he became professor to his student therough the decades. I am not aware of any study for the past 50 years where the business and historical- cuneiform tablets from Babylonia and Persepolis that give dates, together with the relevant astronomical tablets have been studied. The 1800 years old tables of Persian kings of Claudius Ptolemy are still the basis for 445 as year 20 of Artaxerxes I.

I have made a study of the mentioned historical- and business tablets and as well as of the astronomical ones. (My study of 413 pages was published in 2012.) There are very strong reasons to believe that Artaxerxes I started his reign in 475/74, ten years before the year of the traditional chronology. And there are equally strong reasons to believe that he reigned for 51 years and not the 41 years of the traditional chronology. If this is correct, year 20 of Artaxerxes I is 455/54.


Best regards,

Rolf J. Furuli
Stavern
Norway


A couple of notes:

Already for that time period, the Egyptian “histories” were not worth the paper they were written on.

Claudius Ptolemy was working from hearsay, as the official Persian records had already been destroyed by Alexander the Great.

Astronomical phenomena are cyclical, as a result the same signs can refer to different times.

Even as late as the Roman era, our reconstructions of when could be off by a decade or more, though I suspect most are within a few years.

Then we have Daniel’s prophesy that’s connected to the command to build Jerusalem given to Nehemiah. A careful reading of that prophesy indicates that it ends with the seven year Roman conquest of the Jewish revolt of 66 AD give or take a few years. Going back to the beginning of that prophesy gives a date of 415 BC give or take a few years.

Which dates do we choose to follow? My biases lead me to accept the Biblical date. Which dates you choose to believe are up to you.

Karl W. Randolph.

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SteveMiller
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Re: When was the book of Daniel written?

Postby SteveMiller » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:18 pm

Jason Hare wrote:Steve,

How can you, apparently by divine fiat, simply declare that the JPS is wrong in that verse in Zechariah 9:9? Is it because you use the NT to determine what is translated corrected in the Hebrew Bible?

MP: Whatever is written in the NT overrides all Hebrew language usage.
mP: Matthew says there were two animals.
∴ There were two animals!

Is that how we should investigate the Hebrew language? I just don't understand what's going on here. Please, tell me that I'm wrong. How did you come to the conclusion that "even" is not an acceptable translation of ו... under the right circumstances?

Thanks Jason, for calling me out on this.
You are right that the reason I say that translating waw prefix as "even" in Zech 9:9 is wrong is because of the NT.
However I do not know for sure that "even" is not an acceptable translation of the waw prefix anywhere else. There may be places, but I am not aware of any.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

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Re: When was the book of Daniel written?

Postby SteveMiller » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:36 pm

Jason Hare wrote:The text does not say "From the issuing of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until an anointed one, a prince arrives, there will be a period of seven weeks and sixty-two weeks." That is simply absurd. Who counts like that?

It says:
From the going-out of a word to rebuild Jerusalem until an anointed one, a ruler – seven weeks.
And for sixty-two weeks it shall be rebuilt.

These are two separate periods. Seven weeks until the coming of the anointed one in question. Sixty-two weeks after that for the rebuilding of the city.

That is where you mess-up is coming in reading the text. There is a definite division here. No matter where we start the count, the first "messiah" appears around 49 years after the issuance of the command – not 483 years after the command.

If you're one who gives any attention to the accents written on the verse, notice these ones:

וְתֵדַ֨ע וְתַשְׂכֵּ֜ל מִן־מֹצָ֣א דָבָ֗ר לְהָשִׁיב֙ וְלִבְנ֤וֹת יְרֽוּשָׁלִַ֨ם֙ עַד־מָשִׁ֣יחַ נָגִ֔יד שָֽׁבֻעִ֖ים שִׁבְעָ֑ה וְשָֽׁבֻעִ֞ים שִׁשִּׁ֣ים וּשְׁנַ֗יִם תָּשׁוּב֙ וְנִבְנְתָה֙ רְח֣וֹב וְחָר֔וּץ וּבְצ֖וֹק הָֽעִתִּֽים׃

Do you see what's on the number "seven" here: עַד־מָשִׁ֣יחַ נָגִ֔יד שָֽׁבֻעִ֖ים שִׁבְעָ֑ה ? That's etnachta. It represents a major disjunction in the reading. It separates "seven weeks" very definitively from "sixty-two weeks." Reading it together leads to absurdity. Who in the world would count like that arbitrarily?!

"Hey, man. I'll see you later!"
"Yeah, don't forget: we're meeting in fifteen minutes and seventy-five minutes! See you then!"

No! Everyone would say "we're meeting in an hour and a half" if that's what they meant. There's no reason why Daniel would not write שבועים ששים ותשעה if that's what he had meant. I know that Hebrew numbers are ridiculous with the opposite form matching of masculine and feminine, but give me a break!

(Take this as a lighthearted post, please. But, seriously, no one counts that way.)


Jason,
You have a good point. But the passage is written in the way of a riddle so rules of common straightforward conversation do not always apply.
Also in BH numbers are joined by "and" in a wordier way than we would in English, and I presume Modern Hebrew.
‎Gen 5:5 וַיִּֽהְי֞וּ כָּל־יְמֵ֤י אָדָם֙ אֲשֶׁר־חַ֔י תְּשַׁ֤ע מֵאוֹת֙ שָׁנָ֔ה וּשְׁלֹשִׁ֖ים שָׁנָ֑ה וַיָּמֹֽת׃
This structure is common in the geneologies. Note the repetition of the word "years" as "weeks" is repeated in Dan.
All the days of Adam were 900 years and 30 years and he died.
We are not to understand it as: All the days of Adam were 900 years. And [for] thirty years he died.
I think the translation of Dan 9:25 could go either way. We need to bring in other criteria to make the decision, such as when was the word to return and build Jerusalem.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

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Jason Hare
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Re: When was the book of Daniel written?

Postby Jason Hare » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:27 pm

No, but "nine hundred and thirty" is a natural division - nine hundred (900) and thirty (30). You will never find "seven and sixty-two" as a natural division - seven (7) and sixty-two (62) - as some circumlocution meaning "sixty-nine." We might indeed see "sixty and nine" as separate numbers ("sixty weeks and nine weeks"), but "seven weeks and sixty-two weeks" is just plain stupid. This is a most ridiculous way to read the passage - and it's plainly as wrong as it is ridiculous.

If you didn't hold as dogmatically to your eschatology as you do, you would see that this reading is absurd and is not what the text means.
Jason Hare
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kwrandolph
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Re: When was the book of Daniel written?

Postby kwrandolph » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

SteveMiller wrote:Jason,
You have a good point. But the passage is written in the way of a riddle so rules of common straightforward conversation do not always apply.


This is one of the most straightforward prophesies in the Bible.

If you want to talk about a prophesy that’s a riddle, go to the New Testament and the book of Revelation. Yet even there one clue after another becomes clear if one knows Tanakh—the four horsemen, Zechariah 6; the woman who gives birth, Ezekiel; the son who rules the nations with a rod of iron, Psalm 2; the two beasts, Daniel; the number 666, twice connected with a man known for his wisdom … and apostasy; and so forth. Yet there are all sorts of strange teachings that come from people who don’t know Tanakh yet read Revelation. It’s where there is the only reference to a millennium, in a book of riddles, yet there’s a whole theology built up around that. Incidentally, according to Revelation, the millennium comes before the fulfillment of the Ezekiel 38–39 prophesy.

SteveMiller wrote:Also in BH numbers are joined by "and" in a wordier way than we would in English, and I presume Modern Hebrew.
‎Gen 5:5 וַיִּֽהְי֞וּ כָּל־יְמֵ֤י אָדָם֙ אֲשֶׁר־חַ֔י תְּשַׁ֤ע מֵאוֹת֙ שָׁנָ֔ה וּשְׁלֹשִׁ֖ים שָׁנָ֑ה וַיָּמֹֽת׃


This is a common way of relating numbers that is found in several languages. When I responded to you before on adding numbers, I made an exception for this format.

But the way you want to add it is weird and I find it impossible to accept unless you can find another example of such addition in Tanakh.

SteveMiller wrote:I think the translation of Dan 9:25 could go either way. We need to bring in other criteria to make the decision, such as when was the word to return and build Jerusalem.


Why not 490 years before the fall of Masada, just as the prophesy says?

Karl W. Randolph.

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Jason Hare
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Re: When was the book of Daniel written?

Postby Jason Hare » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:24 pm

kwrandolph wrote:Why not 490 years before the fall of Masada, just as the prophesy says?

I'm with you on this. It seems pretty obvious.

Jason
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Re: When was the book of Daniel written?

Postby SteveMiller » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:04 pm

Jason Hare wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:Why not 490 years before the fall of Masada, just as the prophesy says?

I'm with you on this. It seems pretty obvious.

Jason


You both agree that the word to return Jerusalem and build it was 490 years before Masada.
But Jason says this word was 49 years before Cyrus and Karl to something very different.
I do not know what word Jason is referring to, so that is why I brought this up for the 2nd time.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)


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