Was Seir a city?

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Kenneth Greifer
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Was Seir a city?

Postby Kenneth Greifer » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:16 pm

I read that Seir was a mountain range, a land, a people, and maybe a region of Edom. I am not sure about the last one. Was Seir a city? Would it be wrong to call it a city? If it was a city, was it the capital of Edom?
Kenneth Greifer

Isaac Fried
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Re: Was Seir a city?

Postby Isaac Fried » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:17 pm

Does this come from seeing
שֶׂעִיר = זֶה-עִיר?

Isaac Fried, Boston University

kwrandolph
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Re: Was Seir a city?

Postby kwrandolph » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:00 am

Kenneth Greifer wrote:I read that Seir was a mountain range, a land, a people, and maybe a region of Edom. I am not sure about the last one. Was Seir a city? Would it be wrong to call it a city? If it was a city, was it the capital of Edom?


Just look at its uses as a name:
• apparently the name of a person and his descendants Genesis 36:20–21
• name of the region where they settled Genesis 32:4
• the land included mountains Genesis 36:8–9, Deuteronomy 2:1, 5, Joshua 15:10, 24:4
• while the land of Seir was recognized to be part of Edom Genesis 32:4, yet it was recognized to be different from Edom 2 Chronicles 20

Nowhere that I found is Seir specifically mentioned to be a city. In fact, that it was a home of a people argues against that it was a city.

Karl W. Randolph.

Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Was Seir a city?

Postby Kenneth Greifer » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:21 pm

Karl,

Isn't Zion a city, a mountain, and a people? Or what would you say Zion is?
Kenneth Greifer

kwrandolph
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Re: Was Seir a city?

Postby kwrandolph » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:47 am

Kenneth Greifer wrote:Karl,

Isn't Zion a city, a mountain, and a people? Or what would you say Zion is?


Without making a complete analysis of every mention of Zion (over 100 mentions) in Tanakh, my seat-of-the-pants reaction is that Zion properly was just a portion of Jerusalem, namely a fortress. (David’s palace was built on another site.) Often, however, “Zion” was used also to refer to the whole city of Jerusalem by extension, as apparently it was where the government offices were established.

As to where was Zion originally situated? Was it originally in the city of Jerusalem itself? Or was it where the “temple mount” now stands? It was a militarily important high point that dominated the city and was above the city.

(As to where Solomon’s temple stood, it was not on the “temple mount”, rather it was built on a flat area. Anyone who studies ancient agriculture learns that threshing floors were flat areas where the work could be done, and the temple was built on a threshing floor.)

Yes, people lived there too.

There are differences between mentions of Zion and Seir—Zion was specifically mentioned to be a fortress, where people also lived, as part of greater Jerusalem; Seir was a mountain region, also called a land. Zion was specifically called a city; Seir never called a city. The two are not equivalent.

Karl W. Randolph.

Saboi
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Re: Was Seir a city?

Postby Saboi » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:07 am

Genesis 27:11
Jacob "Smooth " שעיר
Esau "Hairy " חלק

Joshua 11:17
Mount Halak (חלק) that goeth up to Seir (שעיר )
and to Baal-Gad in the valley (בקעת ) of Lebanon under Mount Hermon

The word שעיר means Hairy, Fleece or garment and describes the mountain fleeced in snow
and it's seasonal, so it looses the garment during summer and melts into the rivers and streams

This is repeated throughout the Hebrew scriptures.

Isaiah 41:18, Psalms 68:8, Judges 5:4 ,Isaiah 55:10 ,Amos 9:13 , Nahum 1:5, Amos 9:5, Psalm 18:7
1 Kings 18:38. Exodus 4:9, Job 24:19, Psalms 68:14, 2 Kings 2:8 , Deuteronomy 11:4, Psalm 147:16
Ezekiel 38:22, Numbers 33:39, Exodus 10:19, Exodus 4:6, Numbers 21:14, Numbers 12:10 Job 6:15-6
Psalm 148:8. Job 38:29-30, Songs 4:1, 6:5, Psalm 89:12

Lee . Wales
Lee Mcgee

James Stinehart

Re: Was Seir a city?

Postby James Stinehart » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:44 am

“Seir” is not a city.

Non-Biblically, (i) “Seir” is only attested in the Late Bronze Age, not earlier, and not later, (ii) “Seir” and “Ḫurri” were the well-known names of the Hurrians’ two divine bulls, in the Late Bronze Age, and (iii) in Egyptian inscriptions and the Amarna Letters, “Seir” is used as a geographical place name for the Jerash area just east of the Jordan River: the Hurrian-dominated northern Transjordan in the Late Bronze Age.

In Joshua (Joshua 15: 10; 11: 17; 12: 7), “Seir” has a northerly locale, and indeed has its Late Bronze Age non-Biblical meaning: the Hurrian-dominated northern Transjordan.

In the Patriarchal narratives, when Jacob is slowly traveling west along the northern bank of the Jabbok River, on the southern edge of the northern Transjordan, Jacob cannot avoid meeting his estranged older twin brother, Esau, in Seir. Esau’s in-laws are the ḪR -Y / חרי / ḫry [at Ugarit], a name which is transliterated by modern historians as “Hurrians” (though transliterated as “Horites” by KJV, long before the historical Hurrians were known). Thus Esau’s Seir must of necessity have its historical meaning: the Hurrian-dominated northern Transjordan in the Late Bronze Age.

University scholars ignore all of the above entirely, and insist, on a unanimous basis, that “Seir” in Genesis is located south of the Dead Sea, per Deuteronomy 2: 12, 22. No university scholar is permitted to a-s-k if “Seir” in the Patriarchal narratives may have its historical, non-Biblical meaning, as opposed to the non-historical meaning set forth in Deuteronomy, because to ask that question would raise the issue of whether the Patriarchal narratives may date all the long way back to the Late Bronze Age, as opposed to the scholarly insistence that the last 40 chapters of Genesis are mid-1st millennium BCE fiction.

Similarly, “Seir” and 24 other men’s names are set forth at Genesis 36: 20-30 as being names of Esau’s in-laws who are Hurrians / ḪR -Y / חרי / ḫry [at Ugarit]. No university scholar is permitted to analyze these 25 names on a Hurrian basis because, once again, to do so would raise the question of whether the Patriarchal narratives date all the long way back to the Late Bronze Age, as opposed to the scholarly insistence that the last 40 chapters of Genesis are mid-1st millennium BCE fiction. By analyzing non-Semitic names on a west Semitic basis, university scholars have come up with the following ludicrous meanings of these names: “basket”, “hyena”, “Anatolian deity”, “antelope”, “resting place”, “bald”, “unclean bird of prey”, “remainder”. Gordon Wenham, “Genesis 16-50”, pp. 337-339.

Israeli Biblical historians concur entirely with that 100% non-historical approach to these mysterious names: “Ran Zadok…arrived at the conclusion that there is not a single Hurrian personal name in the Bible.” E-mail to me dated June 30, 2015 from pre-eminent Biblical historian Nadav Na’aman.

In sum, university scholars have no idea what “Seir” means in the Patriarchal narratives, nor can they provide a non-absurdist explanation of any of the other 24 names of Esau’s Hurrian in-laws at Genesis 36: 20-30. Because, you see, if the Hurrian name “Seir” in the Patriarchal narratives were analyzed on a Hurrian basis, and/or if the other 24 names of Hurrian males at Genesis 36: 20-30 were analyzed on a Hurrian basis, that would then imply that the Patriarchal narratives date all the long way back to the Late Bronze Age, and may have pinpoint accuracy in that historical context. That historical approach to the Patriarchal narratives is something up with which university scholars will not put!

Jim Stinehart

Saboi
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Re: Was Seir a city?

Postby Saboi » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:41 am

שֵׂעִיר as pronounced is δειρά "ridge of a chain of hills", also means "Skin, flay" (of animals) that explains the poetry since δειρά roots ἄδορος and אדרת that was worn by Esau and the Sept translates אדרת שער as δορὰ δασύς "Shaggy Skin" and δασύς is דשא & עשב.

לוטן - καλυπτός "covering"
צבעון, צבע "divers colors" (Judges 5:30)
חרי - χροιά "color, skin" cf. עור, χρώς, δορᾷ & χρῶμα "pigments for dying" .
דשון, דישן, δασύς, δαίζω , "thresh, flay ", see Judges 8:7 "tear your flesh"
הימם, αἷμον "red"
עיבל αἰπός "lofty, high" or αἰπόλοι "goat herders" or טבל
רקח φάρμακον "dye, paint, colour"

The association with dying also confirmed in Isaiah 63:1.

Isaiah 63:1
Who is this that cometh from Edom with dyed garments

אדום - αἱμάς "blood-red"
חמוץ - αἱματόεις "blood-stained"
ברדים - ἐρύθημα "dappled, red"

Many people are associated with Red.

φοινός - Blood Red "Phoenicia "
Σκυθικός - Ruddy complexion "Scythian"
Σινωπική - Red earth. Sinop
σάρδιον - Red stone, Sardis
μίλτος - Red Earth, Miletus
Lee Mcgee

James Stinehart

Re: Was Seir a city?

Postby James Stinehart » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:42 pm

Saboi:

You wrote: שֵׂעִיר as pronounced is δειρά "ridge of a chain of hills", also means "Skin, flay" (of animals) that explains the poetry since δειρά roots ἄδορος and אדרת that was worn by Esau and the Sept translates אדרת שער as δορὰ δασύς "Shaggy Skin" and δασύς is דשא & עשב.”

You are talking about the meaning of seir as a Hebrew common word. But that has no relevance to the Patriarchal narratives.

As a proper name, “Seir” is only attested non-Biblically in the Late Bronze Age, which is the historical time period of the Hurrians. Very famously, the names of the Hurrians’ two divine bulls in the Late Bronze Age were Ḫur-ri and Še-e-i[r]-ri / Š‘YR / שעיר / “Seir”. Non-Biblically, the only historical meaning of “Seir” as a geographical place name is the Hurrian-dominated northern Transjordan in the Late Bronze Age (which in the 1st millennium BCE, after the Hurrians went extinct, became known as the Jerash region, and was the easternmost extent of Israel).

The Hurrian nature of the name “Seir” in the truly ancient Patriarchal narratives is confirmed by the fact that “Seir” and 24 other men’s names are set forth at Genesis 36: 20-30 as being names of Esau’s in-laws who are Hurrians / ḪR -Y / חרי / ḫry [at Ugarit]. Moreover, note that at Genesis 14: 6, the hill country of “Seir” is expressly paired with Hurrians / ḪR -Y / חרי / ḫry.

Accordingly, in the Patriarchal narratives, the meaning of seir as a Hebrew common word is completely irrelevant. Please note in this connection that 0 of 25 names of Esau’s Hurrian in-laws at Genesis 36: 20-30, including “Seir”, make sense in west Semitic / Hebrew.

Jim Stinehart


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