question about noun adjective and tense + Isaiah 7:14 "conceiving"

[kwrandolph]

Look at the context. Isaiah had switched from addressing Ahab to addressing the whole House of David which had already lasted centuries by that time. So there’s no expectation that it had to be fulfilled immediately.

By addressing the king, he was addressing the house of David.

Look at verse 13, there Isaiah specified the “House of David”. That’s context. Isaiah switched addressees.

Isaiah also mentions something that was impossible, a virgin being pregnant, which by its impossibility apart from God is a sign.

It doesn't say "virgin." It is not prophesying a virgin conception or virgin birth.

The word comes from the root meaning “to be unknown” hence an “unknown woman”. The reference is not to a woman who has been hidden, rather one who has not had sexual relations with a man.

The opposite is one who is known. Genesis 4:1, Luke 1:34 meaning one who has had sexual relations.

What we have here is an adjective, then the next two phrases have feminine participles which are nouns. So the direct (and awkward) translation comes out as “Behold the pregnant virgin and the one bringing forth a son and the one calling his name God With Us.”

You are illustrating that you don't know the difference between המלך טוב "the king is good" (a nominal clause) and המלך הטוב "the good king" (noun phrase with adjective).

That’s a silly claim. Further, how would you translate it without using a tensed verb in English, to match what is in Hebrew an untensed clause?

Do you have any examples from Tanakh for the difference between “the king is good” and “the good king” using “good” and “king”?

It does NOT by any stretch of the imagination mean "the pregnant virgin," which would be הבתולה ההרה (the adjective would need to be definite, and we would have to have the word "virgin").

Are you sure you’re not just being formulaic here?

The context is talking about Ahab's enemies being destroyed before the child to be born knows how to distinguish between good and bad. It's not about 500 years later, and such poor translation of the pieces of the text does not lend credibility to your claim.

I’ll refer you again to verse 13.

Karl W. Randolph.

[Jason Hare]

Look at verse 13, there Isaiah specified the “House of David”. That’s context. Isaiah switched addressees.

Calling Ahab the "house of David" is like calling Donald Trump "the President." Ahab was the king. He was the house of David. His father was also the House of David. Anyone who was the king was the house of David. This isn't projecting anything into the future.

The word comes from the root meaning “to be unknown” hence an “unknown woman”. The reference is not to a woman who has been hidden, rather one who has not had sexual relations with a man.

The opposite is one who is known. Genesis 4:1, Luke 1:34 meaning one who has had sexual relations.

Etymological fallacy. עֶ֫לֶם also comes from the same root, but it doesn't mean that the young man was a virgin. There needs to be something from the context that tells us that it's speaking about a virgin, and we don't have that here. It just means "young woman." Well, nothing but theological suppositions. Your theology demands that you interpret this passage as referring to Jesus, and that you read עַלְמָה as a reference to Mary's virginity at the time of her conception. This is reading your faith back into the text of the Tānāḵ.

That’s a silly claim. Further, how would you translate it without using a tensed verb in English, to match what is in Hebrew an untensed clause?

Do you have any examples from Tanakh for the difference between “the king is good” and “the good king” using “good” and “king”?

Are you really asking me to teach you basic Hebrew? If you're asking, I'll give you a lesson in how adjectives agree with the nouns that they modify, and that if the adjective is indefinite while the noun phrase is definite, then it is functioning as a predicate adjective and makes up a sentence. Do you need a lesson in what everyone learns from around the third week of Hebrew class—just after covering the formation of nouns and adjectives, before learning anything about verbs?

If you're sincerely asking for a lesson in elementary principles, I'll pull both sections from the most commonly used grammars, as well as a wealth of examples from the biblical text. Just let me know, and I'll get on it. I figured it was enough to point out the mistake, since anyone who has a modicum of experience in reading Hebrew would know that there is a substantial difference between הָֽעַלְמָה הָרָה "the young lady is pregnant" and הָֽעַלְמָה הֶֽהָרָה "the pregnant young lady." This would especially be true with regard to the one person who has clearly read and understood the Hebrew Bible more thoroughly than anyone else on this forum. Scratch that, more than anyone else in North America. Heck, maybe more than anyone in the history of Bible reading! But, I'll lay it out for you if you are sincerely asking.

Are you sure you’re not just being formulaic here?

Yep, I'm sure. Again, just tell me you're sincerely wanting to know, and I'll demonstrate it for you.

[ducky]

הנה העלמה הרה וילדת בן וקראת שמו עמנו אל

***
Basically, This sentence can be understood as present and also as referring to the future.
In this case, the context talks about the present, and this born kid's name is a sign for the close event to come which is Judea's being saved from the attempt of Aram's and Israel's attack. So it is read as the woman is already pregnant. And the prophecy would be fulfilled while the kid is is still in his breastfeeding time.

*******
יֹלֶדֶת vs. יֹלַדְת
These two forms are the same word.
"yoladt" is the older form of "yoledet".
forms of "XeXeX (first "e" stressed) are a development of "XaXX".
So the "ladt" in "yoladt" is the same as "ledet" in "yoledet".

This is a participle, which refers to the future.
**********

וקראת
an old form of וקראה
***********

בית דוד
The house of David is the King's senior men (as advisors and other high staff).

We can see this at the beginning of the chapter when it is said in verse 2:
ויגד לבית דוד
(This attack attempt on Jerusalem was told to the house of David - meaning to the king and his men - And Not: to the dynasty of David, of course).

And so, in verse 13, after the prophet understood that the king is not willing to open his heart for his words, He starts talking to the house of David (meaning, the senior staff). We can understand it as giving them the prophecy directly (while the king hears unwillingly) - or that we can understand this, as saying בית דוד in scorn, as referring to everyone in the room with indifference or with contempt.

But anyway, the בית דוד is the same בית דוד In verse 2 - which is the high people
of the king.
*************************

עלם/עלמה
The meaning is a young boy/girl.

According to what I know, the letter Ayin=ע of that root is parallel to the Ghayn.
It has the young boy meaning in Aramaic (also being strong)
Also in Ugarit and Arabic, this root is written GH-L-M (also "young boy/girl" and in Arabic, it also has the meaning of excitement and sexual lust).

******************************
Who is this עלמה?

Probably Isaiah's wife.
The prophet talks about his own wife that is preganant.

Isaiah's had three sons, and all of their names are symbolic to a prophecy.
The name עמנו-אל as referring to this prophecy fits as well to the pattern of his sons' names.

Also, we can see here, after he brought the statement about his son, that he continued his statement by using כי בטרם ידע הנער and so on...

And then, we see the same thing in chapter 8.
When his wife is also to bring a child, and also here, he says כי בטרם ידע הנער and so on...

In this prophecy (chapter 7), he says that even before this child that would be born finshed his breastfeeding period, Judea will be saved.
And the name עמנו אל - as a statement of this saving (God is with us) is a symbolic name for this saving that would be given before the saving.

Also, in Chapter 8:18, Isaiah talks about his sons that were given to him as signs of miracles/prophecies.
הנה אנכי והילדים אשר נתן לי ה לאתות ולמופתים בישראל
So here we see that his sons were used also for signs. Such as שאר ישוב which his name is symbolic, and also he took him to Ahaz for his prophecy (in chapter 7:3).

Also מהר שלל חש בז which also was born as a sign (as it is told).
And also עמנו אל which was also born as a sign (as it is told).

And so, we see that he said that his sons were given to him as signs.

And עמנו אל is one of the sons.
The text says that he is a sign and The name fits the attern of his sons' names.

Anyway, this son עמנו אל is referring to the near future, and for the events that happen in the near time - The event of Judea will be free for the threat of Aram and Israel.
And we cannot see this as a future born son - because then, it wouldn't fit to his prophecy that is relevant.

*******************

[Isaac Fried]

I Have read over now Isaiah 7:14
לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא לָכֶם אוֹת הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ עִמָּנוּ אֵל
KJV: "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel"
and I must admit that I am still puzzled by the אוֹת, sign'. On the other hand, the fact that the prophet refers to her as הָעַלְמָה suggests to me that he knows her (of course, one may think that he refers to a definite עַלְמָה in his vision.) He also addresses her directly in וְקָרָאת.
There are otherwise plenty of עלמות, to wit, Songs 6:8
שִׁשִּׁים הֵמָּה מְלָכוֹת וּשְׁמֹנִים פִּילַגְשִׁים וַעֲלָמוֹת אֵין מִסְפָּר
KJV: "There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number"
The עֲלָמוֹת being possible very young girls held in reserve.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com

[Jason Hare]

I Have read over now Isaiah 7:14
לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא לָכֶם אוֹת הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ עִמָּנוּ אֵל
KJV: "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel"
and I must admit that I am still puzzled by the אוֹת, sign'. On the other hand, the fact that the prophet refers to her as הָעַלְמָה suggests to me that he knows her (of course, one may think that he refers to a definite עַלְמָה in his vision.) He also addresses her directly in וְקָרָאת.
There are otherwise plenty of עלמות, to wit, Songs 6:8
שִׁשִּׁים הֵמָּה מְלָכוֹת וּשְׁמֹנִים פִּילַגְשִׁים וַעֲלָמוֹת אֵין מִסְפָּר
KJV: "There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number"
The עֲלָמוֹת being possible very young girls held in reserve.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com

Indeed, and it is far less troubling when you read the entire chapter. The אות is not the conception or the birth of the child (no matter what state his mother is in). The אות is what we find in the following verses:

Isaiah 7:14–17 (BHS)

לָ֠כֵן יִתֵּ֨ן אֲדֹנָ֥י ה֛וּא לָכֶ֖ם אֹ֑ות הִנֵּ֣ה הָעַלְמָ֗ה‬ הָרָה֙ וְיֹלֶ֣דֶת בֵּ֔ן וְקָרָ֥את‬ שְׁמֹ֖ו עִמָּ֥נוּ אֵֽל׃ חֶמְאָ֥ה וּדְבַ֖שׁ יֹאכֵ֑ל לְדַעְתֹּ֛ו מָאֹ֥וס בָּרָ֖ע וּבָחֹ֥ור בַּטֹּֽוב׃ כִּ֠י בְּטֶ֨רֶם יֵדַ֥ע הַנַּ֛עַר מָאֹ֥ס בָּרָ֖ע וּבָחֹ֣ר בַּטֹּ֑וב תֵּעָזֵ֤ב הָאֲדָמָה֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר אַתָּ֣ה קָ֔ץ מִפְּנֵ֖י שְׁנֵ֥י מְלָכֶֽיהָ׃ יָבִ֨יא יְהוָ֜ה עָלֶ֗יךָ וְעַֽל־עַמְּךָ֮ וְעַל־בֵּ֣ית אָבִיךָ֒ יָמִים֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר לֹא־בָ֔אוּ לְמִיֹּ֥ום סוּר־אֶפְרַ֖יִם מֵעַ֣ל יְהוּדָ֑ה ‬אֵ֖ת מֶ֥לֶךְ אַשּֽׁוּר‬׃ פ

Vs. 15 begins with the reason that this child would be called "God is with us." This child (and not some child from 500 years later)...

> "will eat curds and honey until he knows to reject what is bad and to choose what is good. For before the lad knows to reject the bad and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you fear will be forsaken. YHWH will bring upon you and upon your people and upon the house of your father days which have not come since Ephraim turn away from Judah—the king of Assyria."

The sign is the arrival of Assyria early in this child's life. That is the sign. The child is called עמנו אל because the arrival of Assyria would PROVE to Judah that God was with them—and that he would not let them fall to the enemies that they feared, the conspiratorial alliance of Ephraim with Syria.

[Jason Hare]

בית דוד
The house of David is the King's senior men (as advisors and other high staff).

We can see this at the beginning of the chapter when it is said in verse 2:
ויגד לבית דוד
(This attack attempt on Jerusalem was told to the house of David - meaning to the king and his men - And Not: to the dynasty of David, of course).

And so, in verse 13, after the prophet understood that the king is not willing to open his heart for his words, He starts talking to the house of David (meaning, the senior staff). We can understand it as giving them the prophecy directly (while the king hears unwillingly) - or that we can understand this, as saying בית דוד in scorn, as referring to everyone in the room with indifference or with contempt.

But anyway, the בית דוד is the same בית דוד In verse 2 - which is the high people
of the king.

Agreeing with everything else you said in your post, I disagree with this. "The house of David" specifically refers to the Davidic dynasty.

Wikipedia: בית דוד
בית דוד הוא שושלת המלוכה שתחילתה בדוד המלך שהתחתן בבית קודמו, שאול, וממשיך שושלתו, בנו, שלמה המלך. כל מלכי ממלכת יהודה, למעט עתליה, מתייחסים אליו.‏

That's generally how it is understood. The king himself is the representative of the House of David. Those who advised him were associated with him, but they were not בית דוד.

[ducky]

Hi Jason,

Don't look at it literally.
Think about the realistic event and how the text tells it.

It says that this message came to the house of David (in verse 2).
So what happened in reality?
who got the message?

It is not just the King and his brother, and his kid and his cousin, right?
The message came to the palace.
To the king and his surrounding (those who are running the palace and kingdom with him).

***
So it is true that בית דוד, literally, is the house of David, and refers to David's dynasty.
But we need to understand it in the context according to how it happened.
When the text tells the story, and say that the message got to בית דוד, it means that the palace got it (the king himself, and his high staff).
Otherwise, it was just said that the king got the message. But it is said that בית דוד got it - and the meaning would be like saying the palace of בית דוד - as the kingship of בית דוד, including those who run it with the king.

[Jason Hare]

I don't imagine that his advisors are excluded from the reception of the message, but it is intended for the king, since he is ultimately the one to make the decision.

Either way, we're in agreement that it was the king at the time, who was afraid that Israel (Ephraim) and Syria were about to come and destroy his kingdom. It wasn't for something 500 years later that had no relevance to Ahab and his court.

[ducky]

Yes.
it doesn't so much matter if I take it a little bit to here, and you don't - basically, it gives the same meaning to the event.

And by the way, why you and Karl write Ahab? (A few times).
The king is Ahaz.

[Jason Hare]

Yes.
it doesn't so much matter if I take it a little bit to here, and you don't - basically, it gives the same meaning to the event.

And by the way, why you and Karl write Ahab? (A few times).
The king is Ahaz.

Right. Was writing from memory, and the memory isn't perfect.